Why Not a Religion where "Belief" is Neccesary but Not Sufficient.

[David Sklansky]

Is there such a religion? Jews, some Catholics, Sklanskians, Pair the Boardians, and some others, seem to think you can avoid hell with good works even if your beliefs aren't up to snuff. (Although those Catholics apparently think that fewer good works are needed if you do believe. Maybe none at all.) Meanwhile, many Christians and probably others, seem to think you can avoid hell even if you are a scoundrel if you truly believe, (or "accept Christ", or whatever you want to call it). And, of course, atheists don't believe in hell.

So why isn't there a religion that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell? If there is such a religion, its not a common one, I don't think. I have an idea, but want to hear your's first.

[imported_anacardo]

A perfect example of what you describe, though not in according-to-Hoyle terms of "avoiding Hell," would be the Bahai Faith.

[Jordan Olsommer]

As any religion gets sufficiently popular, reforms start taking place, one of the first of which is undoubtedly going to be "how about if we just be decent people instead of believing all this fairy tale stuff?" So it's going to be either the original core of one of the major religions (which at some point spun off one of the "we're just Good People" sects), or it has not yet attracted enough people to have such reforms come up.

So in my view the "we don't need to believe, we just need to behave" bit is inevitable, eventually. The only way around it is to either concentrate on the subset of hardcore orthodox types found in any religion, or concentrate on religions with small congregations (which is pretty much the same thing - show me a small religion and I'll show you a religion with dedicated practitioners, whether the religion happens to be waxing or waning).

[xniNja]

Interesting topic... in terms of Christianity you could compare predestination and the more Protestant view that your actions determine your salvation. I believe the Bible clearly states something like "For each good deed, he shall receive ten like it (-in heaven) no man shall be wronged," which, if you believe the Bible is the word of God, would suggest your actions deem you worthy or unworthy.

In terms of other religions, most I have studied that involve some belief in an afterlife focus on merit rather than belief. Examples; Hinduism/Buddhism generally reflects that your next life will be based on how you treated other living things in this life and not so much what you think or believe. On the other hand, there are few clews on how to achieve enlightenment. Another interesting example are the Egyptians.. for them everyone made it to the afterlife, but where you were in the afterlife was determined by where you were in this life, and what you took with you to the next. The implication here, again, isn't based on any necessary "belief" in the Gods. Here's why:

Christianity, and/or derivations of the Old Testament and Koran, to my knowledge, are the only religions that strictly require their followers to "believe" in order to ascend into "heaven" or the afterlife. The simple reason is because these religions were used to bond together large groups of people to fight/believe in the same cause. If people didn't think it was necessary to believe to reach Heaven, then they wouldn't have- and it would not have been so easy to influence them.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there such a religion? Jews, some Catholics, Sklanskians, Pair the Boardians, and some others, seem to think you can avoid hell with good works even if your beliefs aren't up to snuff. (Although those Catholics apparently think that fewer good works are needed if you do believe. Maybe none at all.) Meanwhile, many Christians and probably others, seem to think you can avoid hell even if you are a scoundrel if you truly believe, (or "accept Christ", or whatever you want to call it). And, of course, atheists don't believe in hell.

So why isn't there a religion that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell? If there is such a religion, its not a common one, I don't think. I have an idea, but want to hear your's first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Islam says you have to believe but also do the 5 pillars (make the Hajj, pay charity "zakat" etc)

As for Christianity, while John 3:16 is touted alot that anyone can 'accept Christ' and they are saved, there are a few verses in Matthew that I've always wondered about:

[ QUOTE ]
Chapter 7 v21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ofcourse I don't know if this applies to only the hypocrites who merely profit off Jesus (eg - the many TV evangelists) or also is applicable to someone who says "Sorry for my sins, I believe" and then doesn't give a second thought to it for the rest of their days?

Tricky Skalnsky.

"so why isnt there a religon that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell"

ive never asked a catholic priest or minister but i always assumed that all but the looniest of born agains thought that believers could still earn a place in hell if they tried hard enough...abortion clinic bombers and the like. i also thought that this is what constituted a mortal sin in catholic circles, but im neither of these religons so i realy cant say.

i do know, however, that in the mormon church, belief(mormon belief) alone neither guarentees heaven or excludes hell. even the faithiest believer needs good deeds to make it to the tip top of heaven. likewise, a nonbeliever and a believer with equally bad deeds here on earth both have the exact same eternal fate.

belief actualy makes things a bit tougher on the individual as u dont have an excuse for misbehaving. belief on this earth is not even neccesarily required (for non mormons) for heaven while good acts most certainly are. interestingly mr sklansky(a non believer i think i can safely say) is most likely eligible for all of heavens eternal rewards while i (a baptized mormon who doesnt quite buy all the specifics) am probably not. i have recieved the holy spirit and have had the privlage of knowing revealed truths, mr sklansky has not. upon his death someone will be baptized in mr sklanskys name here on earth. mr sklansky, at this time will have the option of accepting or rejecting this baptism which is necasary along with good works for entry into heaven. at this point he will have more complete information so i assume he will make the correct decision. im a little bit screwed as ive alreadt accepted but im not so sure about the believing.

btw im no expert on mormon doctrine or anything so the last 2 paragraphs are anything but definitive. they are however, answers that were given to me by church leaders and teachers that i knew and questioned while growing up in the church. i have no idea whether or not they were just blowing smoke up my ass in order to give me a nice sounding answer. i never realy even looked for definitive answers cuz the specifics of a ridiculus idea dont seem relevent but nonetheless i think ive given a fair assesment of what mormons believe is required.

[ QUOTE ]


As for Christianity, while John 3:16 is touted alot that anyone can 'accept Christ' and they are saved, there are a few verses in Matthew that I've always wondered about:

[ QUOTE ]
Chapter 7 v21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

u dont have to read that far to find contradictions and unresolvable differences in the bible...
...but then just a little faith is required that all will be explained...
...of course this screws the nearly 90% of people who merely choose the same religon as their father, allthough if catholics are right maybe only 80% of us are doomed

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there such a religion? Jews, some Catholics, Sklanskians, Pair the Boardians, and some others, seem to think you can avoid hell with good works even if your beliefs aren't up to snuff. (Although those Catholics apparently think that fewer good works are needed if you do believe. Maybe none at all.) Meanwhile, many Christians and probably others, seem to think you can avoid hell even if you are a scoundrel if you truly believe, (or "accept Christ", or whatever you want to call it). And, of course, atheists don't believe in hell.

So why isn't there a religion that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell? If there is such a religion, its not a common one, I don't think. I have an idea, but want to hear your's first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get the idea that I believed in Hell? Besides, the PairTheBoardian Religion will not emerge until late in the 217th Millennium when 2+2 archives are dug up by Status Hungry Galactic Message Board Posters in search of Coup material for achieving hegemony over the highly inflamatory Shrimp Cocktail debates having been raging for 563 years.

PairTheBoard

[threeonefour]

I am 99% sure the LDS faith fits Sklansky's description. not a major religion but it does have about 12 million members I believe.

I think Jehovah's witnesses are the same actually.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

So why isn't there a religion that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell? If there is such a religion, its not a common one, I don't think. I have an idea, but want to hear your's first.


[/ QUOTE ]

You still don't understand basic Christianity. We are justified by faith alone which means our sins are forgiven when we trust in Christ. But the New Testament is clear throughout that empty belief does not save. Read the Book of James. It isn't that we are justified by works, nor is it that God owes us anything because we do good deeds. But it is clear that someone who says they have converted but remain unchanged have not really exercised genuine faith.

The idea that you can mouth the words "I accept Christ as my Saviour" and then lead any kind of life you like and still consider yourself a true Christian is completely false. Belief means faith means trust which produces fruit. Being born again means being regenerated and receiving a new heart. A new heart produces evidence through a changed life.

All this is by grace not on the basis of works. But works follow the exercise of God's grace. Always.