Jesus's Birth and Death

David Sklansky · #1 08-04-2005, 07:38 AM

The following words are not something that anyone should disagree with.

Religious people have a tendency to be vague. They have a tendency to speak of love, faith, feelings, morals, God's will, sin, etc. etc. Perfectly fine. Furthermore many Christians take pains to assert that their religion doesn't contradict science anymore, even if misguided practioners in the past once did. Again OK. Well almost OK. Because they do in fact at the very least assert a couple of things that science considers close to impossible. Namely that Mary was a virgin and that Jesus truely died and was resurrected. (I think some Christian sects don't think that Mary was a virgin.)

Although there is much more to the Christian religion, it is important to realize that these two assertions BY THEMSELVES ARE EVERYTHING. If they were somehow proven to be untrue there is no Christianity. If either assertion is true there must at the very least be a God and unless you are a big bossjj supporter, it is the God that Christians believe in. ALMOST NO ATHEIST WOULD DISAGREE WITH THAT LAST STATEMENT.

What I'm trying to say is that whether atheists are right or not pretty much hinges on the totally unvague questions of whether Mary was a virgin and whether Jesus was resurrected. (Jews would disagree but that's not relevant to most people. If the answer to those two questions turned out to be "no" I'm betting almost all Christians would become atheists rather than Jews.)

Of course there is no obvious way to answer those two questions. My only point here is to make clear that the atheist vesus religious debate (as opposed to debates between Christian denominations) is not vague, philosophical, psychological, emotional, left brain versus right brain, or any of the things that Pair the Board or others would like it to be. It is a clear cut, no nonsense, simply put question.

MaxPowerPoker · #2 08-04-2005, 08:03 AM

Let me be the first Christian to agree with you on this thread.

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1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

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BZ_Zorro · #3 08-04-2005, 08:11 AM

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The following words are not something that anyone should disagree with.

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This has to be your best unintentionally arrogant sentence yet.

And I do disagree with most of it.

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If either assertion is true there must at the very least be a God

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I can think of many other possible and reasonable explanations for these phenomena.

2. Muslims and Jews get along just fine without Jesus. These religions aren't that far removed from christianity in their core beliefs. Christianity would survive in an altered form - Jesus could still be a messenger of God without these miracles.

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If the answer to those two questions turned out to be "no" I'm betting almost all Christians would become atheists rather than Jews.

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I disagree completely. If you think this I doubt you understand the religious mind. No offence intended.

MaxPowerPoker · #4 08-04-2005, 08:19 AM

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Christianity would survive in an altered form - Jesus could still be a messenger of God without these miracles.

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This altered form exists now but is by definition not Christian. Unless by Christian you mean "having something even remotely to do with Jesus". I don't buy this definition by the way.

BZ_Zorro · #5 08-04-2005, 08:29 AM

Think of Jesus as a Christian version of Muhammed. You can still be a follower of Jesus and believe he is THE messenger from god and the way to salvation without these two miracles. In fact, some of the more grounded and educated Christians probably do.

As a case in point, look at what happened with Darwin's theory. The idea of evolution and man descending from apes fundamentally goes against the idea of Jesus, who died to save us from original sin. At the time, it rocked the foundations of Christianity, but the intelligent found a way to incorporate this glaring contradiction into their belief system. They always do. Hell, some even deny evolution to this day.

In summary: Sklansky's proposed revelations wouldn't make much difference. Saying that they'd become atheists is missing the mark imo.

mackthefork · #6 08-04-2005, 08:42 AM

I've openly stated before, I can accept that its possible for Christ to have risen from his tomb, and still logically be an atheist, this is due to the fact that its much more probably that he wasn't dead (but unconscious), than the existence of such a god the Christians choose to believe in.

Regards Mack

daryn · #7 08-04-2005, 08:53 AM

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I can think of many other possible and reasonable explanations for these phenomena.

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no, you can't. don't confuse what sklansky was saying. he said that if jesus REALLY WAS RESURRECTED. that doesn't mean that he appeared to be dead and then came back to life. he's talking about a real deal resurrection.

mackthefork · #8 08-04-2005, 08:59 AM

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no, you can't. don't confuse what sklansky was saying. he said that if jesus REALLY WAS RESURRECTED. that doesn't mean that he appeared to be dead and then came back to life. he's talking about a real deal resurrection.

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Given that its a billion to one, and it can't be proved at this point, isn't it all a bit pointless.

Mack

BZ_Zorro · #9 08-04-2005, 09:05 AM

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I can think of many other possible and reasonable explanations for these phenomena.

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no, you can't. don't confuse what sklansky was saying. he said that if jesus REALLY WAS RESURRECTED. that doesn't mean that he appeared to be dead and then came back to life. he's talking about a real deal resurrection.

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Right, so he's saying that if God really did resurrect Jesus, the God must exist? Well, yeah. Duh.

The question is one of whether a historical figure called Jesus came back to to life after being dead for a while, and then rose up into the sky or whatever. If that was true, are you telling me you can't come up with another explanation for it that doesn't involve a supernatural super being?

Can you see how if such an event did really happen, it would be written into a religious book and passed off as the work of gOd?

MaxPowerPoker · #10 08-04-2005, 09:11 AM

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Think of Jesus as a Christian version of Muhammed. You can still be a follower of Jesus and believe he is the way to salvation without these two miracles. In fact, some of the more grounded and educated Christians probably do.

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Why would someone want to follow a liar? And even if you decided to, what makes you thing that would in any way lead to salvation? Following a Jesus who was not raised from the dead has the exact same saving power as following...say...David Sklansky. It may make you feel good, but there is not hope of salvation. I mean if there is something to be saved from, what good is following someone who has no power to overcome it for you?