Does this qualify as a 'Miracle'?

PokerGoblin · #1 08-02-2005, 08:33 PM

I ran across this headline on Yahoo and instantly thought about the miracle/prayer discussion a couple weeks ago.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050802/...da_plane_crash

My question is, when something extremely fortunate happens, and I don't mean something that someone has prayed and prayed for, what is the first word that comes to mind?

I consider myself to be a combination of an atheist/agnostic person. My favorite term for my position is irreligious.

That being said, why do all fortunate occurances have to involve some sort of deity? I think all those people surviving that plane crash, as it is described in the article, is a miracle in the respect that the probability of all 300+ people getting away before the plane burst into flames was extremely unlikely, yet it happened.

I think the definition of a miracle should be:

Any event or occurance that, with a significantly high probability of a negative result, instead concludes with the most fortunate of outcomes considering the circumstances.

Another example of this is, if you remember about 18 months ago the 9 miners in Pennsylvania that were trapped underground for all those days. The likelyhood of any or all of them surviving are rather remote; by a different definition this would undisputably qualify as a miracle in no uncertain terms.

I am curious as to others' thoughts on the subject.

Do we always insinuate that a higher power is involved anytime we catch that 'miracle' river card?

Or, the famous 'Miracle on Ice' in the 1980 Winter Olympics: 'Do you believe in Miracles?!?!?!? YES!!!!'

Maybe God did come down from Heaven and stopped all those Russian slap shots in the third period, because he loves Americans more.

I doubt any higher power has anything to do with any of it. I call it Positive Variance.

Discuss if you care to.

PG

PairTheBoard · #2 08-02-2005, 09:41 PM

I've said this before but that's ok because nobody pays attention to it anyway.

imo
A change of heart is the biggest miracle. It requires no magic tricks by god, god does not have to break the laws of physics, and if god is involved in such a miracle it's in partnership with the individual - so free will is not violated.

imo, a god who does magic tricks is not producing miracles. If there were such a god I would look for a better one.

PairTheBoard

David Sklansky · #3 08-02-2005, 10:03 PM

"I think the definition of a miracle should be:

Any event or occurance that, with a significantly high probability of a negative result, instead concludes with the most fortunate of outcomes considering the circumstances."

Bad definition. By that definition if you win the lottery it would be a miracle. If you want to use probability to determine a miracle, rather than an outright breaking of the law of physics you've got to pick events with probabilities so tiny that they should be expected to never happen regardless of the number of earthly trials. Getting five Royals in a row. Guessing on every SAT question and getting an 800. Witnessing Peter666's Bar Mitzvah. Stuff like that.

Peter666 · #4 08-02-2005, 11:05 PM

Shalom. Only an action that involves a complete suspension of nature can qualify as a miracle.

Having said that, I was walking to my office which is close to Pearson Airport today. There was some lightning in the distance, and I was thinking to myself "hmmm, what if I was struck by lightning right now. Does God use nature as grace, or does He just let the natural laws do their own thing?" And wouldn't you know it, but a huge lightning bolt then hit the vicinity of Pearson Airport, and I heard a loud noise. About ten minutes after this I turn on my radio and hear eye witnesses report seeing an Air France plane being hit by lighting and overcrossing the runway, landing in a gully I always drive past on the highway. I thought for sure there would be at least 200 dead. Thankfully, everyone got out alive before the plane burst into flames.

Now this is not a miracle, but pretty freaky.

astarck · #5 08-02-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to use probability to determine a miracle, rather than an outright breaking of the law of physics you've got to pick events with probabilities so tiny that they should be expected to never happen regardless of the number of earthly trials.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying this story is a miracle, but isn't the probability of all 309 passengers surviving ridiculously low?

txag007 · #6 08-03-2005, 12:20 PM

Miracle: A special act of God that interrupts the natural course of events.

PokerGoblin · #7 08-03-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bad definition. By that definition if you win the lottery it would be a miracle. If you want to use probability to determine a miracle, rather than an outright breaking of the law of physics you've got to pick events with probabilities so tiny that they should be expected to never happen regardless of the number of earthly trials. Getting five Royals in a row. Guessing on every SAT question and getting an 800. Witnessing Peter666's Bar Mitzvah. Stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that's what you might say. And I thought about that after posting. If an occurance requires the laws of physics to be broken to be considered a miracle, has there ever been a miracle?

My initial thoughts on this subject were that we as a society use the phrase in the context of an unfortunate event occuring with a significantly unlikely happy ending.

I disagree with your point that the outcome of a turn of a series of cards, roll of the dice, lottery drawings etc. would qualify as miracles by my definition. With respect to their extreme unlikelyhood of occuring, there are no dire negative consequences of the more likely outcome... if I play the lottery and lose, I lose $1, which I can afford, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Witnessing Peter666's Bar Mitzvah.

[/ QUOTE ]

No miracle here either. Hell would have to freeze over first, which isn't necessarily a bad thing [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

PG

PokerGoblin · #8 08-03-2005, 12:26 PM

I read the definition on Merriam-Webster's site.

But we rarely use the term in that connotation.

PG

txag007 · #9 08-03-2005, 02:17 PM

I just reread your original post. The events you are talking about are not miracles, but that does not mean God wasn't involved. He answers prayers and works in our lives every day.

In the Bible, the occurrence of a miracle is very rare. When a miracle does happen, it is very obvious. Miracles in the Bible either happen in public or in front of a large number of unbelievers. They involve something instantaneous, usually healing. They are predicted beforehand. They also convince many people.

By these terms, the instances in your original post don't qualify as a miracle. But, as I said before, that doesn't mean God's hand was not in it.

PokerGoblin · #10 08-03-2005, 02:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The events you are talking about are not miracles, but that does not mean God wasn't involved. He answers prayers and works in our lives every day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your position, but I think you are overlooking the point of my OP.

I am not trying to debate the presence or influence of God. It's been done to death already and I am not inclined or qualified to make any assertions to either side of the argument.

I was just simply pointing out our use of the word 'miracle' in everyday life. Despite it's higher power implications, we use it to describe a lot of things that by definition are not true miracles.

PG