Math and Nerds

David Sklansky · #1 08-01-2005, 06:15 PM

First here are three unfortunate but true statements regarding mathematics and to a lesser extent logic and physics.

1. A higher percentage of experts in these fields are nerds, than experts in other fields.

2. Deeply concentrating on these subjects at an early age has, on average, a deleterious effect on social skills.

3. How good you can get at these subjects is partially related to heredity and natural talent.

Some scientists and mathmeticians don't like to admit the truth of the above three statements. They point out that there are many socially adept people in their field. They stress that almost anyone can learn college math if they apply themselves. And they are right. But the three statements above are also right.

The PROBLEM here is that many people use those three facts (along with an erroneous opinion) to justify not studying math and formal logic. They point to the nerdy, only semi successful mathmeticians, and proclaim they don't want to be like that. They go on to say that they aren't talented enough anyway to get good enough in math where it will help them. Thus it isn't worth it and may even be deleterious to study the subject. But they are DEAD WRONG.

First of all if we are talking about people who have already developed social skills, learning math is obviously not going to hurt anything. Knowing the quadratic formula somehow makes you impolite? Even learning math at a young age is not bad for you unless you obsess over it. Its a simple syllogism error. Just because nerds are good at math doesn't mean getting good at math makes you a nerd.

As for the part where you need talent to get great at math, I say so what. That is only relevant if there was no value in getting merely good at math (and logic). But there most certainly is. Exactly how much value is open for debate. Perhaps there is not quite as much value as I think. Most people, on the other hand seriously underestimate the value. One of my big goals in life is to carry on my father's quest to show people their error regarding this. But even those who underestimate the value of studying math and logic have to admit there is at least SOME value. Most would admit that the value more than compensates for the few hundred hours of study. Yet they still don't do it. Their reason is often because of those three original statements above. Hopefully I have persuaded some to rethink that.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!! · #2 08-01-2005, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. Deeply concentrating on these subjects at an early age has, on average, a deleterious effect on social skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that the inclination to concentrate on said subjects is often directly related to poor social skills and vise versa. poor social skills are not a "result".

if you are from kenya, you are more likely to become a great distance runner. Becoming great at distance running doesnt make you more likely to be kenyan (sp?).

mackthefork · #3 08-01-2005, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Deeply concentrating on these subjects at an early age has, on average, a deleterious effect on social skills.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think that the inclination to concentrate on said subjects is often directly related to poor social skills and vise versa. poor social skills are not a "result".

if you are from kenya, you are more likely to become a great distance runner. Becoming great at distance running doesnt make you more likely to be kenyan (sp?).

[/ QUOTE ]

The sort of child that finds math interesting, useful or even easy to understand and use, is much more likely to have a lower level of emotional intelligence.

Mack

TomCollins · #4 08-01-2005, 06:31 PM

There are two schools of thought here-

1) Being a nerd and having the natural talent to succeed at math are not related directly. However, non-nerds are less likely to put the time into math, because of motivation (only nerds do it, I don't want to sit at a desk all day, I'd rather do something that impacted people on a day to day basis, etc...)

OR

2) Being a nerd directly has a correlation with mathematical talent. The "nerd gene" not only makes one anti-social, but also gives that raw talent that non-nerds don't have.

I'd be willing to stake it on a little of both. Where the breakdown lies is the question. It's probably around 25% 1, 75% 2.

But the real reason why more people don't learn basic math and logic isn't that they are afraid they will be nerdy or anything. It's that most people find it to be incredibly boring and uninteresting. Also, its taught in a terrible way that only makes it interesting for the nerds.

TomCollins · #5 08-01-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The sort of child that finds math interesting, useful or even easy to understand and use, is much more likely to have a lower level of emotional intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Emotional Intelligence- a bogus term used by those with low intelligence to make up for their shortcomings.

A_C_Slater · #6 08-01-2005, 06:42 PM

NERDS!!! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

mackthefork · #7 08-01-2005, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Emotional Intelligence- a bogus term used by those with low intelligence to make up for their shortcomings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably, it would be great if everyone was the same, however they are not. Some people make friends easy, some don't. Some have 160 IQs others have 105 IQs. Everyone has good points and bad points.

No one can do much about their intelligence level, you might say working hard will make a difference, but the difference is minimal, you just learn to parrot, the same thing applies to understanding people.

Mack

David Sklansky · #8 08-01-2005, 07:02 PM

"The sort of child that finds math interesting, useful or even easy to understand and use, is much more likely to have a lower level of emotional intelligence."

Mack

Do you include in your definition of "math" things like logic puzzles with no numbers involved?

Anyway you might be right about children who think math is interesting. There is a slight chance you are right about children who find math easy. But to avoid sounding ridiculous you should at least retract the "useful" part. The most non mathematical person in the world knows that there are many situations where it would be usefull to know math. Even some that apply to him.

Finally, even if you were right about everything, you did nothing to refute my statement that it is good to get better at math, if you can.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!! · #9 08-01-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The sort of child that finds math interesting, useful or even easy to understand and use, is much more likely to have a lower level of emotional intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats my point. im saying that activley studying it doesnt result in poor social skills.

BruceZ · #10 08-01-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you are from kenya, you are more likely to become a great distance runner. Becoming great at distance running doesnt make you more likely to be kenyan (sp?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it does by Bayes' theorem, and if you understood math and logic you'd know that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It doesn't make it any more likely that *I* am Kenyan, because I already know that I'm not. But if all you know about someone is that he's a great distance runner, his chance of being Kenyan becomes substantially greater than before you learned that. Just consider how likely it is for a random person to be Kenyan compared to how likely it is for a random great distance runner to be Kenyan.

This principle is important. For example, "politically correct" people can't even admit that a young Arab man is more likely to be carrying a bomb in an airport than an 80 year-old grandmother from Iceland, and that a racial profiling strategy which makes it more probable for the young Arab man to be searched would, all else being equal, be more effective in catching bombers, even though this is (currently) indisputable, except by stupid people. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]