Live quads, how to proceed?

JihadOnTheRiver · #1 07-31-2005, 02:59 PM

Live 1-3NL max $200 buyin. I have $400 on the button and dealt 88, UTG+1 has $400 and raises to $15, MP has $300 and calls. $15 has been standard bring-in, I call.

($45)Flop is 884, two hearts. Raiser leads for $20, MP calls, I call.

($105)Turn is a ten of hearts. PFR leads for $30, MP folds, I call.

($165)River is a non heart K. PFR leads for $30. How much?

Board reads 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

gulebjorn · #2 07-31-2005, 03:11 PM

I'm not sure about this, but I think I'm raising that flop, I'm sure that I'm raising that turn, and I'm doing my very best to push on the river.

JihadOnTheRiver · #3 07-31-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this, but I think I'm raising that flop, I'm sure that I'm raising that turn, and I'm doing my very best to push on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

OBTW, I have no reads on this guy. My first hand at the table I got AK, flopped two pair, and somehow some handicapable kid let me double up on his AT. Thats why I'm at 2xBuy-in. I haven't seen this kid play any hands yet, as its my 10th or so hand.

So you say raise the rflop? I couldn't disagree with you more. Can you explain? Sure, if he has AA or KK I'm gonna get some money, but what happens when a smaller PP or AK/AQ just folds?

-Me

vulturesrow · #4 07-31-2005, 03:27 PM

I dont like a flop raise either. Raising the turn can be debated I think. This is a rare situation where I might consider a minraise, depending on what you think villains reaction to it would be. River play is definitely my weak spot but I like pushing sometimes, or about a half pot sized raise, depending how you think villain will react.

FreakDaddy · #5 07-31-2005, 03:27 PM

With no reads it's tough. I think you played the hand fine, including the calls. You really want someone to boat up here or hit a nut flush, it's the primary way that quads get paid off.

It's hard to put him on a range of hands here with no reads. He could easily have anything from AK - JJ-AA... or even some other donk combo, but I'm going to assume if he's doubled his stack he has some idea of how to play the game (although this doesn't always apply of course).

I think I make it $100 on the river, which is still decent odds if he has AA,QQ or perhaps even AK(although a bit donkish but does somewhat fit the betting pattern), and I'll hope that he has KK or the nut flush and will come back over the top.

gulebjorn · #6 07-31-2005, 03:28 PM

Well, like I said, I'm pretty sure about raising the turn, not so very sure about raising the flop.

This is kinda hard without a read and a table image.

But my thinking was that you would get some more money in the pot from some pocket pairs, flush draws or maybe even overcards. The problem is that if you want to play this for a monster pot, you're gonna have to start building it soon.

So it's probably a trade-off. You can call/minraise/bet small and hope they will catch a hand. This will leave you with smaller pots in the end, but more people in them.

You could also start building the pot sooner. This will make bigger pots in the end, but with less players.

This is an optimization problem, really.

Is optimization a word? You get what I mean, I'm sure.

Anyway, I don't know what is optimal, maybe someone else can clarify.

JihadOnTheRiver · #7 07-31-2005, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that if you want to play this for a monster pot, you're gonna have to start building it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is only a $3 blind game. $150 on the river is pretty big.ging for a aise

Another thing that nobody has yet mentioned, that river bet from him is pretty fishy. At the time, I'm thinking a nut-flush or KK begging for a raise was more than just a little bit likely...no?

FreakDaddy · #8 07-31-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that if you want to play this for a monster pot, you're gonna have to start building it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is only a $3 blind game. $150 on the river is pretty big.ging for a aise

Another thing that nobody has yet mentioned, that river bet from him is pretty fishy. At the time, I'm thinking a nut-flush or KK begging for a raise was more than just a little bit likely...no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I mentioned that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But that's exacetly what I was thinking/hoping.

foldem · #9 07-31-2005, 03:49 PM

The problem with not raising the flop is if he has a made hand like JJ no heart and a scare card comes off on the turn it will be hard to extract later in the hand while he may have been willing to play a big pot on the flop. However if you have a read of weakness on the flop calling is better.

On the turn you definitely need to put in a raise. By this point he either has a hand or he doesn't. As you played it I would make it 100 straight and charge him to draw dead to a flush. If he calls the turn value bet the river for 100.