Forget what I said about Stars $16s

durron597 · #1 07-28-2005, 08:48 PM

Wow. I seriously must have had a bad run before, whether unlucky opponents or just unlucky cards (or maybe I changed something). But these things are just as fishy as any other low limit SnG that I've played in. Some choice hands from this set (I'm sure I could find plenty more):

Also feel free to comment on my preflop push, given tournament level of course.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) converter

MP2 (t2085)
CO (t300)
Button (t1985)
SB (t2505)
BB (t1375)
UTG (t1830)
Hero (t1205)
MP1 (t2215)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to t1205, 2 folds, CO calls t300 (All-In), 2 folds, BB calls t1055.

Flop: (t2785) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2785) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2785) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2785

Results in white below: 
BB has Ah 6h (one pair, aces).
Hero has Ad Jd (one pair, aces).
CO has Qc Td (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins t2785. 

------

(Pay close attention to stack sizes)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter

UTG (t2085)
MP (t1685)
CO (t2430)
Button (t2300)
Hero (t2785)
BB (t2215)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t500, BB calls t300.

Flop: (t1000) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t1000, Hero raises to t2000, BB folds.

Final Pot: t4000

benfranklin · #2 07-29-2005, 12:45 AM

I play Party/Skins almost exclusively. I have played the Stars regular SnGs and found them to be like playing a low limit rock garden.

I tried my first Stars Turbo tonight. The good news was I was ITM and the play was much more like Party.

Some thoughts based on the math rather than this wealth of experience:

1. I was out in 3rd after 55 minutes. I assume that the whole thing went over an hour. Anyone with a good sense of duration for Stars Turbos?

2. Third place paid 66% ROI, compared to 82% for 3rd at Party. I'm guessing that 82% at Party would convert to about 100% per hour. The 66% at Stars would be about 75% an hour for a 3rd place finish.

3. I have a ton of uncleared bonuses at Stars. The rule of thumb is that bonuses cleared by playing SnGs at Stars essentially offset the entry fee, so that you are playing rake free. Taking the entry fee out, the 3rd place finish paid 72% ROI, or about 80% an hour.

The major unknown in all of the above is the average time for a Turbo. If it is about an hour, then I can't see switching from Party. Comments?

The other potential variable is ITM%. Statistically, at a 10-player SnG, the "average" player should be ITM 30% of the time. At a 9-player SnG, the "average" player should be ITM 33%. I can't imagine that this would be significant for a good player at the lower levels. Any comments on this would be appreciated.

Olback · #3 07-29-2005, 12:54 AM

I have always thought that the Stars turbo tournies were quicker to finish then on Party skins. I am unsure of the exact timing but with 5 minute levels, the blinds get very high very quickly.

The only problem i have found playing there is that the jump in blinds is huge compared to Party. If you get people playing tight on the bubble (which seems to occur), the blinds can be 600/1200 with a 50(100?) ante and 4 or 5 handed.

I have also found that people call with junk alot more on the buble on Stars so you stealing oppurtnites are far reduced.

So like you i am unsure if playing these for bonus clearing is worth while, given the luck factor in the money and the 9 handed tables.

That being said i have folded my way into 2nd once in a $27 turbo on Stars.

Anyones thoughts on this would be good.

bluefeet · #4 07-29-2005, 12:56 AM

avg stars turbos are closer to 40-45min in my experience.

not a math major, but i'm assuming the 33% paid compensates somewhat for the 'lower 3rd ROI'.

skill level? i spent quite a bit of time on UB, PP, and now PS over the last couple years. there is no distinguishable difference IMO. i think the myth is fueled by people spending too short a time at sight 'x'. 'sample size' certainly has to be a factor in one declaring one sight fishy'r than another.

Olback · #5 07-29-2005, 12:57 AM

I use to play on Stars alot before moving onto Party skins. I think there normal sngs have a slightly better skill level of person, but there turbos are full of awful players sometimes worse then Party players.

benfranklin · #6 07-29-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

not a math major, but i'm assuming the 33% paid compensates somewhat for the 'lower 3rd ROI'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just used 3rd place as an example. First place pays 355% ROI at Party and 315% ROI at Stars turbo. Second pays 172% ROI at Party and 149% at the Turbos.

I am jumping to the conclusion that this lower ROI across the board is not offset by the shorter field, and is exacerbated by playing times which are at least as long, if not longer, than at Party.

My instinct is that the short field has close to zero value for a good player, who rarely busts out must lower than 6th or 7th unless he is rolling the dice for a potentially huge score. (E.g., calling a couple of all-in opponents in the first hand with AA.) To the contrary, it would seem to me that the 10th player at Party is just more dead money.

PS Any more info about average playing times for Stars Tourbos would be appreciated.

gumpzilla · #7 07-29-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I play Party/Skins almost exclusively. I have played the Stars regular SnGs and found them to be like playing a low limit rock garden.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play Stars regular SNGs, and I haven't found this to be the case at all. Maybe in comparison to Party, I wouldn't know.

durron597 · #8 07-29-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I play Stars regular SNGs, and I haven't found this to be the case at all. Maybe in comparison to Party, I wouldn't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think they are rock gardens, but I think they are really bad re:$/hr compared to the Turbos and Party.

HANKMUCK · #9 07-29-2005, 02:56 PM

I have been playing the 6 dollar turbos, 4 or 5 tabling.
I know this is only a small sampling and only recent, but out of the last 25 i have played, 1st= 10 2nd= 3 3rd= 4
Maybe with the 2005 wsop now on tv, many fish are hatching
i would imagine the 15s cant be all that much different.

Anyways thats about 180.00 profit for under 5 hours of play
30 plus dollars an hour (better than my real job)i know that this is on the + side of variance, even a little less roi than this would seem like easy $$$ to me. 45 to 55 minutes per turbo depending on fishies!

durron597 · #10 07-29-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing the 6 dollar turbos, 4 or 5 tabling.
I know this is only a small sampling and only recent, but out of the last 25 i have played, 1st= 10 2nd= 3 3rd= 4
Maybe with the 2005 wsop now on tv, many fish are hatching
i would imagine the 15s cant be all that much different.

Anyways thats about 180.00 profit for under 5 hours of play
30 plus dollars an hour (better than my real job)i know that this is on the + side of variance, even a little less roi than this would seem like easy $$$ to me. 45 to 55 minutes per turbo depending on fishies!

[/ QUOTE ]

Go positive variance!