How Willl New Law Impact Cal Poker?

Since January 1989 court interpretation of state law has prevented California Card Clubs from being able to "rake the pot". Instead, time charges or an up front collection must be used.


Note that some parts of the state such as Los Angeles County interpret this strictly. There you will currently find the “dead button drop” in limits below 9/18 and almost all “ante” money being dropped in low limit stud. Even some 20/40-stud games drop ante money up front here in Los Angeles. Other locations such as Indian reservations and Ocean's 11 in Oceanside allow the big blind (or a portion of any blind) to be placed over the drop box, a token to replace the big blind in the case of 3/6 holdem, and the drop money returned if there is no flop (some used to return on a $20 threshold but that may have been eliminated a few years ago). This is considered a “good deal” by California standards.


There is a new law effective soon that apparently changes this. I was emailed a copy this morning and I’ve only been able to skim it. The gist of the law is that card clubs will be able to take collection from the pot rather then up front. I’m not sure what the clubs will do but there has been scuttlebutt concerning this matter for a month or two.


For now I’ll just post the link below. I might have time late tonight or tomorrow to comment. In the meantime input from the legal eagles and players is welcome.


Regards,


Rick

Well I hope this happens soon. I refuse to play in So.Cal lower limit games because of this silly system. It would be a nice change.

Kris

Goat,


I agree about low limit. This should make games such as 9/18 holdem more playable. OTOH, more players like yourself will be attracted to the games so they will tighten up over time (plus you should play tighter in a "drop from the pot" game).


Do you think they will start raking in top section where they currently take time? Keep in mind that clubs usuaally do not make full collections every half hour because new players don't pay if no list and so on.


Regards,


Rick

I also read this quickly. It seems to me that the difference is that the collection could come from the pot, but it would have to be a fixed amount. If that were the case, it would be a big advantage over the current method for tight aggressive players.


From Legislative Counsel's Digest:


"This bill would provide that no fee may be calculated as a fraction or percentage of wagers or winnings earned. This bill would provide that fees must be determined before the start of play, but may be collected before or after the start of play."


Alden

Rick,


As we both know, those Commerce 9-18 games are pretty crazy in the first place so calming them down a little certainly wont hurt things very much. In fact it might help psychologically since a little more mellow game results in smaller fluctuations. I have a feeling that this would tend to affect Omaha more noticably then Hold'em, I mean in terms of games tightening up. This may end up totally killing the game, but then again I don't really know. As for top sections, I would imagine they would keep it how it is, but once again I don't really know. Your guess is probably a helluva lot better then mine.

Later,

Kris

This is already done in the 60 and larger games at the Commerce. They call it a collection pot, whoever wins this pot, usually played on the hour and half hour, pays the time for the whole table. However, you can elect to pay your own time and not participate in the collection pot.


I like this method of collection, since the looser players end up paying most of the collections. But it kind of po's me that JF won't ever play a hand in these pots.

"But it kind of po's me that JF won't ever play a hand in these pots."


You think I won't notice if you just sneak in initials, huh?

Maybe I missed a discussion of this in the past, but it sounds like Brett is saying that you don't even play in a hand with a collection pot? Can't you just choose not to be part of the collection pool?

See how 3BB tries to get me in trouble? [img]/images/wink.gif[/img] He was just trying to tarnish my "loose guy" image by claiming I won't play a hand in a collection pot. Well I say " [img]/images/tongue.gif[/img] " to him.


In truth, though, in some games with collection pots you will see a major tightening around the table until someone wins a pot that qualifies and pays everyone's collection. For the record, I like collection pots, though nothing Brett says about anything at all is true.

The law is written in legalese but from what I gather the clubs will be allowed to take a fixed drop from the pot after the hand ends rather than before the hand begins (the current practice at limits below 9/18). If the drop is $3, it will always be taken. In other words, they can’t take the drop Las Vegas style where in mid level games 5% ($1) is taken at $20 thresholds with a $3 cap. However, it may be possible to have a “no flop-no drop” policy or a drop after a specific threshold is reached (let’s say five bets) but I am not sure. Does anyone out there know the answer to this?


Note that because of “missed collections” and the overhead associated with collecting time (e.g., tracking “paid leavers” and players moving from other games, floormen tied up settling collection disputes and so on), the clubs may have an incentive to drop from the pot in mid limit games (15/30 and 20/40) that currently charge time.


Let’s look at 20/40 holdem. Let’s say the drop is $4 per hand (and $2 six handed or less). Of course let’s hope there is a “no flop-no drop” policy or else tight games (yes, California games can get tight for a while) will come to a standstill or break after $4 is taken several times in a short period when there is no flop. Typical Los Angeles 20/40 holdem games average about 40 hands per hour. If 5 drops per hour are missed because there is no flop (either chopping blinds or because the blinds are stolen), and 5 drops are $2 because the table gets short the clubs still will collect about $130 per hour. The Commerce club charges $16 per hour “time” at this limit and would get $144 per hour in a full nine handed game. But games are not always full and breaks are given for new players and so on. If you add in the overhead headaches I think the two methods are close to revenue neutral at this limit.


Before posting any more thoughts on how this would impact other games and limits, I’d really like to know what the law actually allows and find out what the clubs are likely to do.


All comments are welcome and appreciated.


Regards,


Rick