check in dark a collusional move?

KHALI · #1 07-20-2005, 03:25 PM

Recently played in the Alladin's 7pm tourney which I was lucky enough to win. I say lucky because at final table blinds were astronomically large, such that even as chip leader I was all in or fold for any hand. Here is the situation, we are down to 6 players and I am in SB with 9c6c and the short stack UTG+1 goes all in for a bet which does not equal big blind. Knowing the range or hands he could have I think it is correct for me to call but I don't really want to invest any more here. BB checks and I instantly call out check in the dark with the intention of sending message to BB that I will check it down. I know it is often an unwritten rule about checking down to eliminate a player but is this out of line?

Second case I had floor manager called on me. At the Wynn playing 4/8 while waiting for a 8/16 to open. I bet out on flop with a OESD and pick up a flush draw on turn so I bet again and am called both times by decent player on my direct left. River is a total blank and I figure only way to win is to bet so I count out my chips(8x$1) near the rail and gather them up and move forward(no commitment line here). As I do this he beats me in pot. I then check with my chips in hand and fold . He loses his mind at which point another player says it is not a bet but dealer is unsure??? Floor listens for two seconds and says no bet. I really didn't care for $8 but this tilted the guy so bad he threw about $150 in my direction over the next hour trying to bust me. How out of line is this and the dealer told me that soemtimes a forward motion is a declaration of a bet. What is this rule?

My intention was not to angle shoot but once his chips beat me in I would be stupid to bet a bluff. My bad or a good lesson for him? FWIW I am usually a player who tries to be friendly at the table and not creat hostility although this worked out in this case.

keats · #2 07-20-2005, 03:31 PM

I would say the 2nd of the two sitautions is the one you should worry about. It sounds like you new that if you moved some chips towards the middle the player would act and then you could decide what to do. Re:Annie Puke during that WSOP hand.

Randy_Refeld · #3 07-20-2005, 03:43 PM

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How out of line is this and the dealer told me that soemtimes a forward motion is a declaration of a bet. What is this rule?

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It depends where you are. Al ot of places moving forward with chips indicates you want to bet. This case is why forward motion is a good rule, you made your intention to bet clear and then changed your action after someone acted on your clear intention.

canis582 · #4 07-20-2005, 03:45 PM

Thats what he gets for beating you to the pot. It was the ultimate breech of poker face.

Al_Capone_Junior · #5 07-20-2005, 05:45 PM

Well checking in the dark, and ALWAYS checking down in a tournament when it's multiway and someone's all in, are both very stupid moves. It's not really collusion to check in the dark, but given how stupid it is, I wouldn't do it anyway.

On your second hand, you definitely got away with one there. That's a clear angle shot, whether you intended to shoot this angle or not. I would have forced you to bet. A forward motion with chips past the betting line (which may be defined by the edge of your cards on tables with no actual "line") is clearly a BET. No matter what room you're in, attempting to check with chips in your hand is a recipe for trouble.

al

Randy_Refeld · #6 07-20-2005, 07:42 PM

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A forward motion with chips past the betting line (which may be defined by the edge of your cards on tables with no actual "line") is clearly a BET

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A better rule (with or without a line) is to change your above statement to read :
A forward motion with chips is clearly a BET. I firmly believe the line leads to more problems not fewer, now players can move towards the line and stop just short of it. THere can also be a situation in NL where a player throws some chips forward and some stop short of the line.