Muuust.. Get.. To.. Showdoown.... UUNNH

donger · #1 07-12-2005, 10:42 PM

Opponent is 31/11/2 and has a CR % of 3 and WTSD of 31%. He's a tight blind defender (65 Folds BB to steal) and probably has a reasonable hand. I haven't had much experience at this point with this particular player, I just pulled this stuff out of my mined DB.

I've been experimenting with checking turns vs this type of player and just calling a river bet, or betting if checked to on the river.

Good? Bad? Ugly? (Standard?)

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.20 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5.20 BB

wheelz · #2 07-12-2005, 10:46 PM

Good

mperich · #3 07-12-2005, 10:56 PM

I like a bet better on the turn here. I think its pretty safe to fold to a c/r, and he will call down with worse hands often enough to make value betting the turn and river profitable. Sometimes, I do check behind here against an opponent who c/rs a lot, depending on my image.

-Mike

Entity · #4 07-12-2005, 11:00 PM

I only like a turn check when you have reason to believe he'd bluff c/r the turn or if he'd never call a turn bet but always bet (or call) the river, even without an Ace, if you check. So I usually bet here.

Rob

cartman · #5 07-12-2005, 11:03 PM

I usually check behind on the turn if all three of the following are true:

1) I wouldn't know whether to call a raise

2) I definitely want to show my hand down

3) My opponent is very likely to bet the river when checked behind on the turn

In your example, I would definitely bet with JJ because I can easily fold to a raise. I would definitely bet with AQ because I could definitely call the raise (or 3-bet). KJ in my opinion falls under the situation in which I would hate being raised, so I would probably check behind.

What should I do if 1) and 2) are true, but not 3)? Against that type of opponent I am not properly reimbursed on the river for the value I often miss on the turn.

Would I have to just bet the turn and make a tough decision on whether to call the raise?

Should I just have some balls and bet the turn and make the tough decision against any opponent who hasn't shown any resistance so far in the hand?

Thanks,
Cartman

donger · #6 07-13-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I only like a turn check when you have reason to believe he'd bluff c/r the turn or if he'd never call a turn bet but always bet (or call) the river, even without an Ace, if you check. So I usually bet here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you really fold to a CR here? You're getting 6:1 to try to suck out two pair or trips if he does CR you, and I doubt it's always from Aces up. In fact, I doubt it's always an ace from an aggressive opponent.

Once I make that call, I end up in the uncomfortable situation of facing a river bet getting 8:1. ERGH. Checking makes things easier to play.

Sthief is always talking about keeping pots small against tricky opponents and finding ways of inducing bluffs and getting to showdown. Am I getting ahead of myself by considering this stuff at 5/10?

donger · #7 07-13-2005, 12:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually check behind on the turn if all three of the following are true:

1) I wouldn't know whether to call a raise

2) I definitely want to show my hand down

3) My opponent is very likely to bet the river when checked behind on the turn

In your example, I would definitely bet with JJ because I can easily fold to a raise. I would definitely bet with AQ because I could definitely call the raise (or 3-bet). KJ in my opinion falls under the situation in which I would hate being raised, so I would probably check behind.

What should I do if 1) and 2) are true, but not 3)? Against that type of opponent I am not properly reimbursed on the river for the value I often miss on the turn.

Would I have to just bet the turn and make a tough decision on whether to call the raise?

Should I just have some balls and bet the turn and make the tough decision against any opponent who hasn't shown any resistance so far in the hand?

Thanks,
Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

This precisely spells out both my reasoning and questions about this hand.
Nice post.

sthief09 · #8 07-13-2005, 02:00 AM

I think when villain is behind he's drawing dead an awful lot and I'd like to produce a bet from him by getting him to bluff the river. I'd say the average player calls about half his hands from the BB here then calls with half of that on the flop, so we're looking at an extremely wide range of hands. I had a guy call me on the flop and turn the other day with QT on an A66 board after I capped a 3 way pot, and he didn't even seem that bad. so I think you have him dead a lot, and I think he bluffs the river a lot. there also aren't that many hands that can call the turn. there's an A and a K out there which means he might make a "big" laydown with bottom pair

I'm not opposed to raising the river, simply because he doesn't have an A all that often, but will probably pay off with any pair. I pull this a good amount and they always pay off. you also rarely get 3-bet since even the most novice hand readers are putting you on AA, KK, AK.

sthief09 · #9 07-13-2005, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Sthief is always talking about keeping pots small against tricky opponents and finding ways of inducing bluffs and getting to showdown. Am I getting ahead of myself by considering this stuff at 5/10?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, I'm a big advocate of these turn checks against aggressive opponents for the reasons you mentioned. against a loose passive opponent it's an easy bet. against a LAG it's an easy check IMO.

one thing I will say though now, having looked at the board (was thinking it was AK rag rag), it's very coordinated, and you're losing tons of value against someone who will call with a gut shot or OESD but not bet with it. this play hinges completely on betting bluffed on the river. if the board was A72K then I'd check with it a lot. if I had no read and the board is that draw heavy I'll lean toward betting.

sthief09 · #10 07-13-2005, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually check behind on the turn if all three of the following are true:

1) I wouldn't know whether to call a raise

2) I definitely want to show my hand down

3) My opponent is very likely to bet the river when checked behind on the turn

In your example, I would definitely bet with JJ because I can easily fold to a raise. I would definitely bet with AQ because I could definitely call the raise (or 3-bet). KJ in my opinion falls under the situation in which I would hate being raised, so I would probably check behind.

What should I do if 1) and 2) are true, but not 3)? Against that type of opponent I am not properly reimbursed on the river for the value I often miss on the turn.

Would I have to just bet the turn and make a tough decision on whether to call the raise?

Should I just have some balls and bet the turn and make the tough decision against any opponent who hasn't shown any resistance so far in the hand?

Thanks,
Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

This precisely spells out both my reasoning and questions about this hand.
Nice post.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed on both statements