A 2+2 Library of Pregnant Poker Hands

[Student]

I've finally found the ideal tool for analyzing a single hand! PokerTracker is it. PT let's me view a single hand over and over again, watching it unfold just as though I was attending a table as an observer, not a player. PT shows the hand, just like online casinos do, with a table and everything. I can step thru the hand action by action, move thru the hand automatically at different paces, and spend time trying to figure out why each player at the table did what they did.

I view finding this capability as one of the major steps the beginner at poker must discover, because analyzing hands can't be done properly by simply watching on TV (though this isn't entirely useless!), or by observing an online poker game. These two activities pale by comparison with using PokerTracker [or any other Historic Hand (HH)display tool] to study a hand, doing it repeatedly until a proper explanation is obtained for what motivated each participant to behave the way they did.

I have a question: Where do I find hands that are suitable to me (beginner status, of course), maximum instructive, maximum interesting, at specified blinds level, and in HH format? My understanding is PT will record Party Poker hands, even those hands I'm not actually participating in (I presently have gone up the limits all the way to 1/2 cents NL HE, from freeplay). This is good, because then I could have PT fetch hands at whatever blinds level I'm interested in! And I could use PT to study these hands, until such time as I thought I understood them.

Here's a problem for me. Since I expect to mature as a player to the point where bonuses and rake recapture are important to me, though I'm far and away from that presently, I don't want to go to Party Poker yet, until I have an affiliate relationship assuring bonuses and rakeback for me. Of course, these are for the indeterminate future, not today! In fact, I don't want to go to any Party skin yet either, since again I don't want to burn bridges today that I might need tomorrow.

I'm wondering if 2+2 has a library of HHs that I can tap. Do you know of one? Where is it? Will PT accept the output from the Bison Hand Converter, as displayed on 2+2 in some of the table forums, and be able to show the table etc? Are there those on 2+2 who are willing to send HHs to others in the form of an attachment to an email message? Can one send HHs as an attachment to a Private Message (PM) here on 2+2?

Ideally a library of HHs would be available here on 2+2, eh?
It would contain important hands from tournaments, hands used in books as illustrations, etc. Of course, proper author recognition would be required. Too, the beginner needs hands appropriate to his situation, just as advanced players need proper hands, hands that are at their own level...

Dave

PS: I should think authors themselves would welcome having "their" hands available in the 2+2 library, because then readers of their book could study illustrative hands, until they actually understood lessons implicit, right? Maybe some authors have already prepared a library of their own hands. If so, would you kindly put them into your website for downloading? I would be one of those who would vastly appreciate that!!!

[AKQJ10]

Sounds like possibly a good application of the wiki, although I confess I don't see where storing the actual hands adds much more value than storing a bunch of links to 2+2 threads with hands.

For a tiny example see the thread linked at http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/LHE:Preflop:TT -- just one of mine, but i'd love to see dozens.

[Student]

OK, here's the difference, and why my idea is such a strong one!

Let's say a book contains an example involving TT. In addition to discussing the theory of what you're up against when you face TT, the book illustrates with a single sample hand. The author describes all of those who entered the hand, including size of their bankroll. He goes on to describe the kind of player each of the participants is. Then he lays out betting action preflop, including who bet what, who called, who folded, raises, reraises, etc. He attempts to lay out why each player did what they did, and speculates about what kind of hand they probably have. Good enough! The flop happens, and the routine continues all the way to showdown. More analysis happens.

Now that seems like alot of information about just one playing of TT! But more information is available, and that's what happens when everything is added to make this a Historic Hand (HH). If the reader of the book could then take HH info and actually run and rerun the hand, and read and reread the section of the book covering this hand, the reader could then internalize VERY MUCH, taking it way far beyond where the author was forced to end off, given the limitations of the printed page, compared to the scope and magnitude of the problem.

But that same could be said about every hand posted to 2+2. What does one obtain from these postings? A streamlined and very useful display of pertinent factors in a hand, such as your TT, is what! Could the HH for this posted hand help? Of course! It would be of immense help!

Wiki could really do this! Hands could be placed on a 0 to 10 scale, with 10 being the most expert of them. By handing the HH to the user Wiki would be handing them the Bison Converter format hand too! Expert commentary would accompany, so the user would have a mark to shoot at. Let's face it, at first the user is going to come up with a great big dahhhhhhh.... And why not? Beginner's are worrying about a million complexities, and the lesson the author may be trying to get across is far from where they are. And with what result? Learning suffers. The author fails to teach, the pupil fails to learn, the recommendation to read the book isn't made, and life goes on...

Dave

[mattw]

to answer your original question, i dont think 2+2 has a "library" of hands stored in one place. after you have played enough hands (100k) you should have every concievable(sp?) possibility stored with PT.

one thing that came to mind as i read your post is that party appears to be doing away with rakeback. i think most of the skins are stilling doing it though. get rakeback from every site that you can. see rakerebatereview.com or the classified add's here. also, see bonuswhores.com for bonus info. no, im not an affiliate of either, i just dont want to see a new guy make the same mistakes as i did.

gl

[Student]

Thanks for your help!

I play 1/2 cents NL HE on PokerStars, and I lose money at it. There will be a time when I make money at this game, and another when I can breakeven at $1/2 or $3/6 or something else, at which time I'll wonder about bonuses and rakeback. Then I'll make my move, so to speak! I'm staying away from Party deliberately, so I can join them and their skins in the optimum way.

Let's say I was ready to make my move. My understanding is you have to join the skins first, and then join Party itself lastly. This gives you the biggest set of opportunities to secure good bonuses. Is this your advise too?

A problem with studying Historic Hands you've played personally, especially when the only playing you've done is on the 1/2 cents tables, is that these hands will be typical of beginner play, hence scarcely a model of excellence! You're absolutely correct that hands in my personal library would include some ideal ones, perhaps even many ideal ones, but I'm too inexperienced to make the judgement. The ideal hand has every participant playing flawlessly (except as noted below), because I recommend that seeing a hand unfold, action by action, will draw attention to every decision made, for the extreme benefit of the beginner.

Ideally a person, beginner or advanced player, would submit hands he thinks are great hands for possible inclusion in the 2+2 library of great hands. An expert would review submitted hands, and would accept hands in behalf of 2+2 users, affixing to accepted hands notes of explanation. The user would learn what he can from these hands, the notes, and also his personal library of poker reference books. He'd test statements to his own satisfaction, and learn accordingly.

So it's true each of us could come up with 100 hands per day we've played personally (and many, many more if using Party, most of which we'd not be part of), but the process of sorting thru these hands to provide the optimum eventual learning experience necessitates having an expert involved at some level. Wiki would have a certain facility, in these respects, and they'd take hands they accept into their library of Historic Hands and offer them to the public. They would simultaneously urge expert players to critique these hands. After all, a hand doesn't have to be ideally correct to be an excellent learning hand; it could be an super example of a certain common leakage! What makes it a learning experience is the words that attend it, which turn it from a bunch of random actions into a reasoned display suitable for best learning.

Dave

[DrunkHamster]

I know its not exactly what you are looking for, but its kinda similar so I thought it would be worth a link.

http://www.tightpoker.com/poker_lessons.html

There are a load of hands (mostly tourney, but a few ring) where the guy who runs the site goes through his thought processes. I found it really helpful when I started out.

[AKQJ10]

Why don't you post one or two hands that you found instructive on the wiki (make up whatever name you think appropriate -- I'd suggest starting with "NLHE:"), link them here, and I promise I'll edit them to add some commentary. Then if someone wants to correct my comments, they can do so, etc.

Basically like a hand thread on the forums -- except you never have to bump it to the top. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Student]

Thanks for the linkage!

I've gone there and got mixed up with the hand replayer described there. Too late I noticed the edition they plan for July release (hence not released to date) includes PokerStars hands in their scope.

I also noticed he presents many historic hands he was involved in, and this offers to me (provided I can use these hands in PokerTracker) hands played at much higher limits than I expect to see in the near future. Perhaps that will give me exposure to a higher level of play than 1/2 cents NL HE on PS offers! After thinking about it some, I realize that even imperfect hands, played poorly, offer learning possibilities. The books tell where we can go wrong, and then the example hands illustrate folks playing poorly and the consequences thereby.

Thanks so much! I expect to learn much from this newly available direction...

Dave

[Student]

I definitely want to take you up on your offer! Unfortunately you haven't supported overtly the idea of placing raw HH data directly at the disposal of your wiki readers. With this data they could choose to either study the hand using the Bison Hand Converter, and displaying Bison output here in 2+2, or could see the hand unfold in the "replay" mode using PokerTracker or some other hand replayer. Notice another fellow in this thread indirectly brings to our attention another hand replayer presently limited to Party Poker and skins, but developers are working feverishly to adapt it to PokerStars. This hand replayer is totally self-standing, not making an effort to also bring all the statistical treasures PT does. BUT. It demonstrates that hand replaying, similar to the way internet casinos present tables to players, is an interesting prospect to enhance clarity of understanding, so necessary for we beginners.

I envision not only authors presenting their practice hands in HH format, and making these hands available on their own websites, but also internet casinos making actual played hands available to all. They would convert to hide dates and times, player names, etc. They could draw from play done a year before, offering 200 consecutive hands played at a particular table, and identities etc would be protected. These special HH would let me, a raw beginner, actually track play at $10/20 tables. I could watch play unfold at my pace, and could review the same hand a dozen times or more, until I felt I understood which underlying theories were of dominating importance (not be to confused with dominating poker hands!).

I think I understand what you're getting at, concerning adding commentary to hands. When originally placed on wiki these hands could have outright erroneous interpretations, and yet these errors would be corrected as they were discovered. This discovery process would permit many viewers to critique what was said, and the eventual result would be a very educational hand!

Dave

PS: How would your commentary be added to the HH data?

[AASooted]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I understand what you're getting at, concerning adding commentary to hands. When originally placed on wiki these hands could have outright erroneous interpretations, and yet these errors would be corrected as they were discovered. This discovery process would permit many viewers to critique what was said, and the eventual result would be a very educational hand!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is exactly what happens all over the 2+2 forums currently, and I think it's probably more useful to post hands and comment on them directly on the forums.

On the forums, you can submit a hand that you feel you misplayed and have more experience players point out to you where you went wrong. You wouldn't get that from a library of "expert" hands.

Also, there are so many variables involved in a hand of poker that it would be impossible to cover how to play TT in every situation. Are you in early or late position? Was the pot raised before you? Is it likely to be raised after you if you limp in? What is the board like on the flop? The turn? The river? Are there overcards? Possible straights or flushes? How many players saw the flop? What do your opponents have? Who is betting or raising? How do your opponents play? The back and forth of the forums allows people to point out to me the things I should be thinking about to help me master the concepts I need to apply in unfamiliar situations.

Good luck to you on your quest, but I think what you're looking for is already all around you on the different forums. There are three different limit forums, two no-limit and one for Heads-Up & Short-Handed that are filled with posted hands and people discussing the best way to play them. That's much more information than I can absorb in a day already.