Great story about Barry Greenstein

[count1]

Nice story about playing against BarryG1 at WSOP. http://50outs.blogs.com/

[Grisgra]

Someday . . .

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The river brought another ace, giving me a full house. Barry checked and I throwed out a bet. Now think of that: Barry said "well, I hit the flop myself pretty nice", showed KK (!) and mucked his hand without calling my bet. Think of this! Throwing away your kings-full for one single bet in limit holdem on the river. How damn sure was the guy about my holding and how damn correct was he! I was serious embarrased. Barry never recovered from that and went out in 5th place, I myself made also no good use of those chips and was eliminated in 3rd spot. I apologized to Barry when he left about that suckout and he simply said "oh no problem" in a way that sounded like he already forgot about the hand - and I believed him.
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[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
Someday . . .


[/ QUOTE ]

A classic thread from long ago and far away:


The Furcoat Dilemma
Nov 27th, 2000

An interesting dilemma from 2+2...

Izmet



To skp: re. flat call w/2nd nuts
Posted By: J-D
Date: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 2:47 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Top Players: How Many Re-Raises? (Louie Landale)

In a recent session I was on the wrong end of set-over-set when the flop came. I flopped a set of queens, to a board of:

King, Queen, Seven - with two clubs.

Five of us capped it on the flop; I was absolutely certain I had the best hand since I had put in the second (and last) raise pre-flop and the holder of "KK" was a very aggressive player whom I was sure would have capped it with "AA", "KK", - probably even with "AKs".

When a blank fell on the turn and he NOW decided to cap it, I was 99% sure of what he had. I called on the basis of the 1% I was wrong, and the fact that the fourth Queen would put the flush out giving me excellent implied odds. (Looking back, I may have even been getting 45-1 without future bets; it was a BIG pot.)

Of course the Queen landed on the river.

I checked, the Ace high flush bet, "KK" raised, sevens full and another flush just called. When it got back to me, I three-bet it;

I got paid off by everyone EXCEPT "KK", who flashed me his hand before he mucked it.

There were well over 50 big bets in the pot and he wouldn't pay one more bet to see it to the end - and his call would have almost certainly closed the action; this was no group of rocket scientists, but even they knew they were beaten - none of them were about to cap the betting.

In order for this to be a good laydown on his part, he would have to be more than 98% sure that he was beaten.

Looking at it from his perspective, he figured to win this hand approximately one time in a thousand.

IMO, and I am not a fan of laying down big hands on the river for one more bet in huge pots, I don't think he could win it that often.

P.S. Having said all that, I would have probably paid off; perhaps the day will come when I will be able to make such a laydowny, but it hasn't come yet. It doesn't really matter how good your hand is, or the size of the pot.

Sometimes even second nut isn't worth one more bet.

Just my opinion,

J-D



Re: To skp: re. flat call w/2nd nuts
Posted By: Izmet Fekali
Date: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 7:02 a.m.
In Response To: To skp: re. flat call w/2nd nuts (J-D)

J-D writes:
> perhaps the day will come when I will be able to make such a laydowny

Aaaarghh!!!

Someday you will make such a fold, it will be a good one and you will be happy. You will be able to afford a shrimp cocktail at Binions with the saved bet and maybe even treat a friend.

Feeling like a champ, you will do it again someday. But, this time a guy with Q2s will drag your pot, buy the cocktail waitress a fur coat and screw her blue for a week. Now which guy do you want to be? The smart one with the shrimp cocktail or the stupid one with the sore dick?

From an old Albanian song:


"I was told by David Duchowny
ya' won't get rich by good laydowny!"

--
Izmet Fekali (I have a filthy mouth, Mason, please bear with me...)
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe



Re: To skp: re. flat call w/2nd nuts
Posted By: David Sklansky
Date: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:01 p.m.
In Response To: Re: To skp: re. flat call w/2nd nuts (Izmet Fekali)

Unfortunately, when I wrote my Eight Mistakes In Poker and contrasted the mistake of folding when you should call with its opposite number, I did not have Izmet's explanation available to me. It will be included in my next edition.

David Sklansky

[Nottom]

I don't believe it, espesially if folding would leave him cripped in the tourney.

[TStoneMBD]

quite an amazing fold by barry. absolutely horrendous play by the AK.

[TStoneMBD]

the KK fold in question looks pretty stupid to me. the odds that the player with KK played this hand perfectly are next to none.

if the player is good enough to make this laydown on the river and show positive expectation in the long run, i find it unlikely that it was correct for him to raise the river (he assumed his hand was good more often than not here), then all the sudden when he was 3 bet he devalues his hand from greater than 50% pot equity to less than 2% pot equity. i have trouble believing that the river 3 bet can alter equity this dramatically.

my arguement is that if the player is skilled enough to make that fold, then he almost certainly made a mistake on the river raise. if he made this mistake, then i find it much more likely that he made a less than expert fold as he is not at a level of skill in which he can profitable fold his hand for that last bet.

[1800GAMBLER]

I can't see how Barry can eliminate 77 from 50outs holdings here? I'm sure 50outs would play 77 the same way and would say he would. Am i missing something?

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how Barry can eliminate 77 from 50outs holdings here? I'm sure 50outs would play 77 the same way and would say he would. Am i missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the same thing too - granted, 77 would be pretty far-fetched, but there are what, 16 big bets in the pot? I think he would play 77 this way at least 6% of the time in this scenario, no?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how Barry can eliminate 77 from 50outs holdings here? I'm sure 50outs would play 77 the same way and would say he would. Am i missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the same thing too - granted, 77 would be pretty far-fetched, but there are what, 16 big bets in the pot? I think he would play 77 this way at least 6% of the time in this scenario, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know why it would be far fetched?

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't even know why it would be far fetched?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the raise UTG.