How would you play this ?

cavalier · #1 02-12-2003, 11:06 AM

What call would you make on 6th for Seat_8?

1/2 SevenStudHiLo with 7 players
Seat_1 ( $57) - plays loose/aggressive
Seat_2 ( $53.75) - decent player so far ( first session )
Seat_3 ( $58)
Seat_5 ( $32)
Seat_6 ( $42)
Seat_7 ( $48) fairly loose, not too agressive though
Seat_8 ( $80)
Seat_1 posts ante (0.25)
Seat_2 posts ante (0.25)
Seat_3 posts ante (0.25)
Seat_5 posts ante (0.25)
Seat_6 posts ante (0.25)
Seat_7 posts ante (0.25)
Seat_8 posts ante (0.25)
** Dealing ** [ Pot $1.75 ]
Seat_1 [ 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] ]
Seat_2 [ 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] ]
Seat_3 [ 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Seat_5 [ 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ]
Seat_6 [ 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ]
Seat_7 [ 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Seat_8 [ K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] , T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
Seat_8 bring-ins (0.50)
Dealt to Seat_1 calls (0.50)
Dealt to Seat_2 calls (0.50)
Dealt to Seat_3 folds.
Dealt to Seat_5 calls (0.50)
Dealt to Seat_6 folds.
Dealt to Seat_7 calls (0.50)
** Dealing Fourth street ** [ $4.25 ]
Dealt to Seat_1 [ 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_2 [ A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_5 [ Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_7 [ A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_8 [ K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] ]
Seat_2 checks.
Seat_5 folds.
Seat_7 bets (1)
Seat_8 raises (2)
Seat_1 raises (3)
Seat_2 calls (3)
Seat_7 could not respond in time.
Seat_7 calls all-In.
Seat_8 calls (1)
** Dealing Fifth street ** [ $14.25 ]
** Pot raked 50 cents **
Creating Main Pot with $7.75 with Seat_7 [ $8.25 minus 50 cent rake ]
Dealt to Seat_1 [ J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_2 [ 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_7 [ 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_8 [ 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] ]
Seat_2 bets (2)
Seat_8 calls (2)
Seat_1 calls (2)
** Dealing Sixth street **
Main pot [ $7.75 ]
Side pot [ $12.50 ]
Dealt to Seat_1 [ 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_2 [ T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_7 [ 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ]
Dealt to Seat_8 [ 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Seat_1 checks.
Seat_2 bets (2)
Seat_8 calls (2)
Seat_1 raises (4)
Seat_2 raises (4)

Total Pot has $32.25 in it.
Seat_7 only eligible for $7.75 Main ... $24.50 side pot )

What's your play as Seat_8?

Seat_1 = 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
Seat_2 = 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
Seat_7 = 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
Seat_8 = [ K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] , T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

Andy B · #2 02-12-2003, 02:30 PM

Hand histories are hard to read. If you post hands as narratives, people will have an easier time reading them, and you'll get better responses. I put together a fairly substantial response before I realized that (1) the guy showing A234 was all-in and (2) it was the guy with the open nines who was jamming with other low hand.

On fourth street, I wouldn't be raising an open 2A, especially not when he voluntarily entered the pot. Your two Kings are barely enough to call with. On fifth street, it looks as though you're up against at least one made low hand, and it's going to cost at least you three big bets to see if you can escape with half of a small pot. I think you have a fold here as well. A85 could well have a high hand. If he does, he has Kings beaten. In that case, you're in even worse shape.

So on sixth street, you buy some help. Seat 2's board is looking scary. I guess you have a call here. When the guy with the open Nines check-raises though, I don't think you have enough to call two bets cold with. Either the Nines have you badly beaten, or he's an imbecile and you should get his money soon enough anyway. Fold and move on.

Time was, high-low split was played without a qualifier for low. In this game, a pair of Kings was absolutely unplayable. Your high shot was dubious, and you had essentially no low shot. Any low draw is free-rolling on you. In his book, Albert Morehead, who knew about as much about card games as anyone who ever lived, even recommended folding rolled-up trips in this game! With the qualifier, high pairs become playable because they have scoop potential when the low hands bust out. When the low hands get there, you've lost a lot of your equity. I'm not saying that you should always fold a big pair against a made low, but one pair can't take a lot of heat, either.

cavalier · #3 02-12-2003, 02:49 PM

OK, Andy. I'm new to this whole side of poker. I'll do the hand historys differently next time. Thanks.

Anyway, did you notice that on 6th, his 9 was the last nine? Two were out early, so that made his 4th street raise more likely pocket aces or an open end straight. He could have had rolled 7s, but there was one out and he was the type that would have raised 3rd with trips or a high pocket pair.

I see your point about 4th street now and agree with you on 5th about a made low, but knowing Seat_1 played everything, I figured his money might justify taking a stab. I could be the leader with my Ks. ( How good/bad/dangerous is that logic? )

The check-raised 9s were jacks full at best. That was very unlikely since this player pushed when he didn't have cards, nevermind when he did. In this hand, he only called 3rd. I saw it as a move to get my money in, check-raise ( to scare me ) and have the low bring it to $4 back to me... trying to force me out so that his hand stole high. That's exactly what I was thinking. Maybe it wasn't a bad idea, if that's what he was thinking. However, maybe I should have been able to figure out whether or not this guy would try to do such a 'thought out move'.

I'll wait to post the outcome in case anyone else wants to help me.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
or he's an imbecile and you should get his money soon enough anyway. Fold and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have, three nights in a row now. I'll continue to ( assuming he can keep filling that account). [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Andy B · #4 02-12-2003, 03:20 PM

OK, I had missed that two Nines were out. That's what I mean about hand histories being hard to read. Aces-up is unlikely for the Nines guy because he probably would have raised coming in with them and there are two showing. Whether the guy has Jacks-full or Sevens-full, you only have two outs. If he has a straight or Aces-up, you have four outs. If he has Kings-up, you have two outs. In any case, assuming you're behind, you're not getting odds to draw. The guy who's showing low may have you beaten or he might make a low. The all-in guy may well have you beaten, in which case you're only playing for half of the side pot. This hand has the potential to cost you another seven bets, and I don't think it's worth it.

cavalier · #5 02-12-2003, 04:18 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
OK, I had missed that two Nines were out. That's what I mean about hand histories being hard to read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kinda thought this which is why I pointed it out again.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Aces-up is unlikely for the Nines guy because he probably would have raised coming in with them and there are two showing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, agreed

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Whether the guy has Jacks-full or Sevens-full, you only have two outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'd need a King. I did realize this at the time as well. I didn't think he had either, because of his play on 3rd street. I figured this player to be the guy that would raise with any premium pocket pair or trips.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
If he has a straight or Aces-up, you have four outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The straight was probably the most likely scenario since his cards were live and he would play with that opener, and raise on an open-ended 4th.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
In any case, assuming you're behind, you're not getting odds to draw. The guy who's showing low may have you beaten or he might make a low. The all-in guy may well have you beaten, in which case you're only playing for half of the side pot. This hand has the potential to cost you another seven bets, and I don't think it's worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now we are exactly where I want to be.

7 bets ( 2 now, 1 more re-raise and 4 on 7th ).

You say I'm not getting the odds to go for it. How do you figure this out? This seems to be where I struggle sometimes... trying to figure out if it's "worth" it late in the hand.

1) How do I figure out who has the lead here?

2) How do I figure out if it's "worth" it?

If I fill Kings, I'll get high no doubt. If I fill 6s, my chances are a little less but I still feel good about them.

If I don't improve, I might be in the middle on 7th.

Me with Ks up 4 cards / 22 left 4.5:1 to fill.

If I look at the pot right now with respect to what I have to put in, I see

$4 for half of $24.50 plus $4. So, $4 for $16.25, or $4.07:$1.

So, if it IS re-raised, I'd end up putting $6 in to win half of a $36.50 side pot and $4 from the main.
Assuming that Seat_2 is playing a low, I'd be trying for $22.25 if there is a re-raise.

$6 for $22.25 is $3.70:$1

So, if it IS NOT re-raised, I'd end up putting $4 in to win half of a $30.50 side pot and $4 from the main.
Again, assuming that Seat_2 is playing a low, I'd be trying for $15.25 if there is a re-raise.

$4 for $22.25 is $5.56:$1

The only time I get pot odds over my 4.5 is if I call and the nines don't re-raise. I felt like there was only about a 25% chance of that happening.

( If any of these odds calculations are wrong, please correct me. This is all new to me and I'm hoping to learn with the help of this forum and it's members. ).

morgan · #6 02-12-2003, 07:52 PM

Wow! That is a lot of calculating!

Now I'm just a beginner at stud/8, but I feel I can contribute a little bit here. But you should take my beginner status into account when reading this.

First of all I think making a pot-odds calcuation should always be done roughly. In this case I don't really want to do too much figuring, but I'll say the following:

I count 29 cards still left. It is true that 4 of them will give you a boat but I don't think 6's full is very safe. Remember that the 9's not only check-raised you, but they did so probably figuring you for K's and 6's (you did raise on 4th when you caught the king after-all), and they check-raised a 3-flush and a possible made-low (in seat_2). So I'd say you have 2 definate outs, and 2 not-so-good outs. Let's average those and say (very liberally) that you have 3 outs. That gives you 26-3, or 8.7-1. I think you can stop here and safely say winning half the pot won't make this call worth-while. (And even if all your 4 outs are good it is still 6.25-1).

Anyway, that all said, I personally don't make this intricate of a calculation in the heat of battle. At best I'll think something like "Well there are 4 of us left, so there are probably about 30 cards left, so I'm 26-4 to improve, or roughly 6-1 (I tend to round in favor of calling -- probably a mistake)". At this point I would look at the pot and just say "no way". But let's pretend I don't and the action still hasn't made its way to me (unlikely) then I'll think something like "There is about $30 in the pot, plus another, say, 7 bets of my opponents (6th and river) makes for $44 pot, so I'm hoping to make $22. I'm going to have to put in probably 2 bets right here, maybe 3, so let's say $5. So I'm putting in 5 to win 22, and that doesn't meet my odds of filling up". But it's not even that good as when I lose with 6's full I will lose more bets on the river.

Finally let me just say that don't think you have to make the pot-odds caclulation here. Your gut should say fold. When you do make pot-odds calculations you should simplify as much as possible to make it easier. That's what I do. I figure the more I play the better I will get at doing the math in my head quickly.

Anyway, I'm just learning stud/8, and I enjoy reading these posts, so please keep posting [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Morgan

Andy B · #7 02-12-2003, 08:38 PM

The fact that the guy three-bet on third street frankly looks like two pair or a set. His cards may be dead, but he's showing an awful lot of strength. If he doesn't have a full house he might have an oddly-played straight. Well, I don't know how to play a Jack-high straight in this game because I've only ever made one or two, quite by accident at that.

I'm not big on odds calculations. In this game, if you're behind and drawing for half the pot, you're usually not getting anything like the odds you need, so an exact calculation usually isn't necessary, and you're never going to be able to do one at the table anyway. Your math looks reasonable to me. I would assume a cap when doing the calculations.

Please keep in mind that the low hand may already have you beaten, and if he doesn't, he probably has a draw to beat you. You don't just have to beat the maniac; you have to beat everybody. He is part of why I think you have a fold. So is the all-in hand.

cavalier · #8 02-13-2003, 10:33 AM

I know it might not be that big of a deal, and might not change the "right move", but remember... the 9s were dead when he caught the pair on 6th!!! 9s weren't scary anymore.

Thanks for your tips. I am trying to work on making the math easier. Your approach seems much simpler than mine.

I was really influenced here by my "gut" feeling about the guy with the nines. I only did the math "after" the hand. The little math I did during the hand wasn't nearly as complicated.

I almost got too focused on the fact that the 9s were trying to push me out and didn't concentrate on the other guys beating me. I knew the 9s were making a bad play, but that doesn't mean I should join him and fill the pot for a low flush.

Thanks!

Zoe's Echo · #9 02-13-2003, 06:54 PM

BigLeftie,

Didn't see that it was high/low hand.

My post prior to editing was if it were high only.

Good luck

Andy B · #10 02-15-2003, 04:40 PM