underpair - line against flop raise

tinhat · #1 07-07-2005, 10:51 AM

10 hands at the table and saw no blatant postflop craziness; villian was 75%vpip (FWIW).

There was a hand like this posted a few days ago but a much worse flop (AKx IIRC).

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero?

button coldcalled and now raises - is this some textbook move against pfr with a 'scare' card? Is he wanting to know if his king pair is better than my hand? Playing Axs trying to protect? Why raise a set here short-handed?

Stats are unreliable so don't know if I have any business calling his potentially wide range of starting hands; raising because I should recognize I may be good; folding because I should recognize I'm well behind?

Mike

tiltaholic · #2 07-07-2005, 10:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
10 hands at the table and saw no blatant postflop craziness; villian was 75%vpip (FWIW).

There was a hand like this posted a few days ago but a much worse flop (AKx IIRC).

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero?

button coldcalled and now raises - is this some textbook move against pfr with a 'scare' card? Is he wanting to know if his king pair is better than my hand? Playing Axs trying to protect? Why raise a set here short-handed?

Stats are unreliable so don't know if I have any business calling his potentially wide range of starting hands; raising because I should recognize I may be good; folding because I should recognize I'm well behind?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

i won't raise pf w/88 UTG until i have reads on my opponents. 99 i will. so it's arbitrary...but i feel i can maneuver better with 99 OOP than with 88. so, i'd probably fold to the flop CR. if you call, you are probably headed to showdown, and if he doesn't have a king already he probably has tons of outs against you so your hand is likely to be second best by the river (i think).

edit: oh duh - it's shorthandned. nevermind about my pf comment. i think i still fold the flop.

Marquis · #3 07-07-2005, 11:03 AM

Preflop raise is ok, it's 5-handed. I think you can dump this if you have no read on this guy, there are no draws for a semibluff so there's a good chance he has a K.

tinhat · #4 07-07-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]

i won't raise pf w/88 UTG until i have reads on my opponents. 99 i will. so it's arbitrary...but i feel i can maneuver better with 99

[/ QUOTE ]Okay. I notice the colored 6m starting hand chart from HUSH has 77 pfr utg - is that a higher limit thing?

[ QUOTE ]

OOP than with 88. so, i'd probably fold to the flop CR. if you

[/ QUOTE ]Even though it wasn't a c-r do you still follow the same line you posted?

I have two major problems with these weak hands in 6m:

1) Awful play (a different player/different table flop raised Kxx/r with QJo - I couldn't call two here with bottom pair, the best hand; I was dumbstruck looking at hh);

2) Not recognizing deception. I keep seeing talk of odd plays here (clarkmeister, but I know it doesn't apply in this hand) so I'm wondering, is villian's play here possibly one of them? IOW bluff raise to steal hoping flop K is scary to pfr?

I'm having extreme difficulty in 6m distinguishing between what may be inexplicably rotten play, deception, and good play if I haven't seen enough of the players. Do I just play ABC and bite my tongue until I know which of the three I'm dealing with? Be more inclined to reluctantly call down with some hands?

Mike

DeathDonkey · #5 07-07-2005, 11:51 AM

Yes reads help a ton in these games. As an ABC play I would call and check/fold the turn unimproved. Against many you need to call down though.

-DeathDonkey

McGahee · #6 07-07-2005, 12:04 PM

I don't know about that K being a 'scare' card for the PFR.

I dunno - lately I've kinda been torn what to do here. I used to play back in these spots as I gave very little respect to flop raises, but since I've been playing 6-max I've seen more flop raising with made hands and not very many free cards getting taken on the turn. I would peel one off on the outside shot he's on a wheel draw, but expect he has a K often.