Pushing with more than 10x the BB

[Fortitude]

I haven't ran into any major material on this subject but if it already exists, point me there.

7 handed at 25/50

The players have various amounts of chips, it's anyone's game and it's been folded to you in the SB with 99, you have 750 in chips and BB has 1600. Is this generally considered a good spot to push?

[Freudian]

No. You are risking your entire stack for peanuts.

Just make a standard raise and see what happens.

[Fortitude]

If you consult eastbay's tool you will see that no matter what your opponents range of calling hands is, this is +EV. The only reason I posted this is because I thought their may be a better option. Do you care to provide a more detailed argument as to why this is a bad push?

[Sal Allegra]

Standard raise there, no Push Yet. You still have more than 10x's BB

[SumZero]

Just because it is +EV doesn't mean it is optimal. If you make the standard size bet you can have some one fold (no change from a push), reraise to which you push and either get called (no change from a push) or get a fold (better than the push as you win more money). The only place where there is the potential for a worse result is if he calls and then outplays you on the flop. But odds are against his overcards hitting and hopefully you are a better player. So standard raise and re-raise might be better play.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't ran into any major material on this subject but if it already exists, point me there.

7 handed at 25/50

The players have various amounts of chips, it's anyone's game and it's been folded to you in the SB with 99, you have 750 in chips and BB has 1600. Is this generally considered a good spot to push?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have no confidence in your postflop play, then go ahead and push. If you aren't afraid of having to play a little postflop poker then put in a normal raise.

[11t]

I think this is question is being asked in the incorrect context.

Verus an aggresssive BB I'd limp then push vs a raise.

Versus a tight BB I'd raise it to 150 then fold to a push.

Versus a standard player I'd raise it to 150 pf and bet 250 at any favorable flop (highest card = queen) and fold to a browadway flop to save myself 250 chips for a better spot.

Does what I said make any sense to anybody? 99 is a decent holding but pushing here with like 17xBB seems excessive and you will only get called by a higher PP.

[11t]

I think this is a bad push because you only get called by a hand that you are beat by.

Using this logic I push 72os here.

[11t]

I don't think fear of post flop play should be generating your decision here, you are going to be extremely pot stuck if you bet out 150 here and hit a decent flop.

Basically you are at preflop and flop play, no post-flop play involved.

[Fortitude]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply SumZero.

Let's go over a few things and see if you guys can do a better job of convincing me this is a horrible play because I am not totally convinced.

First let's give our opponent a read, this particular opponent was a donkish LAG capable of putting in action with any number of hands. My read on him is definitely incomplete.

Let's say I make the standard 3x raise to 150

he will then A. Fold, B. Call, C. Reraise, or D. Push

Of course I like the standard raise here if he folds as I have risked less of my chips to get the same amount I would get with a push. However, I don't like it if he calls, reraises, or pushes. If he reraises or pushes, I am quite committed to putting all of my chips into this pot against this type of player and it's a risk I don't like taking (more on this later). If he calls, I am out of position against a donkish LAG where I feel inclined to bet out on just about any flop that comes down. If he plays back at me, I'm going to have a tough decision to make that could easily send me out of this tournament.

I think it's also important to consider that though villan may reraise me or push back with many hands if I make a 3x raise he will only be calling with his top hands when I push. Why give myself a higher chance of getting into a race situation? Of course there is also the increased chance that he plays back at me with 1 overcard (<A8 70/30) and an underpair (<88 80/20). Maybe I want the increased chance of action? comments on that please.

So in short I am arguing that this push is better than a 3x raise because it keeps me out of a very marginal situation with an unpredictable LAG.