Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)

[Nick M]

This will probably get ignored like a lot of things said by people on this forum that are not recognized. But I thought that If a few people read it and understand it, than it's probably worth it.

First I would like to explain what Low Ceiling and High Ceiling strategy is. Low Ceiling play is preflop move in poker. A lot of people on this forum use this as their sole strategy for winning at SNGs. It's a great steady strategy that when done well can yield nice profits. It's great for math people. Great for those cool ICM thingys that everyone always talks about. It's a solid strategy and a necessary skill to have in your arsenal. There is just one problem with it, your results are completely and totally dictated by the cards and the odds. This means that you can only be as profitable as the cards and the odds LET you be. You have no say in this matter. When the cards don't want you to win, then you have variance. And you have no say in this either. This is Low Ceiling. No range. No way to avoid variance in any way.

High Ceiling is different. High Ceiling is poker played on both the preflop level and the post flop level. This is where you can defend against variance. You don't just get to play your cards, you can play your opponents cards and take EV that does not belong to you. High Ceiling play has range. It doesn't just steal blinds it steals POTS. Low Ceiling takes EV that does not belong to you sure, the blinds. But High Ceiling is involved in the action and can take advantage of the action. High Ceiling SNG strategy is not High Ceiling cash game strategy. IN NL cash i am in like a million pots. This is about survival and beating variance. Taking what does not belong to you. But also incorporating Low Ceiling move in poker too.

In Low Ceiling play the cards break even. This means the ROI for a person is not unlimited. There's only a set amount of ROI one can achieve by play Low Ceiling poker. You can do much worse but you can never do better. The cards break even, but situations and people never do.

I hate when I read threads and people pose this question of what they do on the button with like 109o, there's 5 players left and you're middle stacked. Then you get like 5 million responses for PUSH!!! hahahah you have no clue what you're talking about. You have know idea what the player's image is at the table. You have no idea what the SB and BB are like as players. He has not told you one hand either of these players have turned over. Just because you put this through a simulator, pick some calling ranges, and it says over 292623462394694624643 SNGs this play will profit you %@&%!* EV doesn't mean you should make it. There is more to the game than a computer telling you what is a +EV play and what isn't. Does the computer know that right before you decided to push 109o into the chip leader's BB he just lost a heart breaker to the all in small stack???? NO it doesn't know that.

Another thing that I want to shed some light on. You hear people say that when moving up in ranks, their ROI shouldn't drop too much. Well with Low Ceiling this is completely correct. ROI will drop a little, but why should it. If profit is dictated by the cards and the odds ROI should never drop. The reason is the players at the higher levels understand this strategy and also use it. if you use the LC style at one level there might be 2 other people using it. Now say you move up 3 levels and there is 5 people using it. Now you need to split all this +EV with the people that are doing the same thing as you.

Let me ask you a question. In poker what is usually the best defense for most set strategies??? The total opposite of that set strategy. If a maniac is raising every pot, you limp more preflp, and call more post flop. If some tight guy is limping every pot you slam him to death and fold when he plays back at you. It's simple. But what is the defense for a non set strategy???? High Ceiling play has no set defense. This is why ROI is unlimited...well in a sense. You could win every single SNG you play, that's the limit ahhaaha. But you understand.

I think it's funny that most people want to play poker instead of a 9to5 job because it gives you freedom. You're your own boss and you set the hours. But then they go and play in the most "freedomless" way possible to get their freedom outside of poker. I was a pro skater for a long time and freedom is my first love. I could do a whole thread on freedom, love, great times, and artistic views; but that would be boring for most people. But that's how I like to play poker, free. No set style, no set range. I make decisions on the fly and I use my instincts.

Thanks

Nick M.

[lastchance]

Preflop FE matters a helluva lot more in SNG's than other forms of poker. And limping with 10x BB is horrible (most of the time). There's a lot of poker that can be played, and at the same time, there's very little poker one can play.

And yes, poker is a constant-sum game. Low-Ceiling also has a low cap. A lot of the bubble and short-stacked plays we do are indefensible. And yeah, you can always play opponents, but "high-ceiling" poker has the same problem "low-ceiling" poker does.

If your opponents play optimally, you can't beat them, no matter how well you play. And yes, it's a lot harder to play optimally with 200x BB than it is with 5x BB.

[kyro]

So in other words this forum is relatively useless because we don't know the opponents and therefore are ineligible to comment on a play.

No. In SNGs, the majority of moves are math-based. Sure, toss a few reads in there and you improve that much. But when someone asks a question in these forums, we are answering based on what we are given. If we are given reads, we incorporate those reads into our answer. If not, it becomes almost solely math-based. For the majority of players here (especially at the lower limits) trying to be "artistic" with your plays will end up getting you burnt.

[pergesu]

The party SNG structure doesn't lend itself very well to postflop play late in the game. The new level has changed that somewhat, but not a whole lot.

Sure, a lot of responses are either push or fold. But when you've got 7 BB, it doesn't make sense to limp or raise less than your stack in most cases. The few cases where it may be true, people are quick to point it out and discuss it.

Different forms of poker have different skillsets. Postflop play isn't as important in endgame SNG play as it is in other forms. If you want that fun, go play some PL/NL cash games. I just care about making $$

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate when I read threads and people pose this question of what they do on the button with like 109o, there's 5 players left and you're middle stacked. Then you get like 5 million responses for PUSH!!! hahahah you have no clue what you're talking about. You have know idea what the player's image is at the table. You have no idea what the SB and BB are like as players. He has not told you one hand either of these players have turned over. Just because you put this through a simulator, pick some calling ranges, and it says over 292623462394694624643 SNGs this play will profit you %@&%!* EV doesn't mean you should make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a little confused by this comment. Poker is all about making the most +EV decisons at all times. Why would you pass up +EV situations in a SNG just for the sake of playing differently than what is the normally considered optimal play. You say you prefer to use your instincts to guide your decisions, but in the example hand you gave what sort of instincts are you using? Some sort of premonition of your opponent's hand? You also stated that you have no idea what the SB and BB are like as players which is true, but you can still have some sort of idea as to how loose or tight the are. This can be translated to a certain range of hands that you can expect to be called by. From this information you can determine what the best play is. I'm sure many players might say that they make this decision based on "instincts", but a good players "instincts" in the spot will assuredly match what is mathematically correct. The instincts you are talking about are just what is mathematically correct. You just aren't actually doing any calculations in your head because you have a feel for what is right and wrong, but it still all comes back to the math.

[treeofwisdom7]

dont fall off the skateboard again

[benfranklin]

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This will probably get ignored like a lot of things said by people on this forum that are not recognized.

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I think that this is one of the best forums here for discussing ideas based on their own merit. (Wow, that's scary. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] )

[ QUOTE ]
Low Ceiling play is preflop move in poker. A lot of people on this forum use this as their sole strategy for winning at SNGs. ..... There is just one problem with it, your results are completely and totally dictated by the cards and the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are seriously missing the point of the strategy you are alluding to. The thrust of many of the discussions here is selectively going all-in when the odds, the opponents, the cards, and the situations are favorable. The conclusions you have reached about "the SST Doctrine" appear to be based on a superficial reading.

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This means that you can only be as profitable as the cards and the odds LET you be.

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A lot of good poker is played with little regard to the cards. The cards are meaningless in a hand that does not go to showdown.

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High Ceiling is poker played on both the preflop level and the post flop level. This is where you can defend against variance.

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Nothing of any worth I have read here advocates avoiding postflop play when appropriate, particularly in the early levels. Postflop is very important there, and is discussed in detail here. Pushing all-in is discussed more here than in other forums because its selective and appropriate use is a much more important skill in SnGs than in other forms of poker.

You say that your strategy of correct postflop play "can defend against variance", but you provide nothing to substantiate that claim.

[ QUOTE ]
freedom is my first love

[/ QUOTE ]

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"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
--Kris Kristofferson

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[benza13]

As has been pointed out, you bring up some good points, but they don't apply as much for the majority of people in this forum that play on Party, in the lower limits. That is a major reason why push/fold advice is the most common. If we all played on other sites that gave bigger stacks then post flop play would be more common. At the higher levels post-flop play and fancier plays stand a much better chance at working because your opponents are also thinking. When your average opponent is a complete donk, then you can only hope to play by the odds and the numbers.

To sum up our points, as you move up it becomes more difficult and you need to incorporate more plays and reads into your actions. Yep, sounds about right...

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
High Ceiling is different. High Ceiling is poker played on both the preflop level and the post flop level. This is where you can defend against variance.

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This statement doesn't make much sense either. Variance is not necessarily a bad thing. If you want you can have no variance whatsoever. Just lose every game you play. That will "defend against variance" too.

[Nick M]

I should have mentioned this in the Post. I only play on Pokerstars.