christianity and gambling

[technologic]

is it anywhere stated in the bible that gambling is a sin?

to play poker, you have to be somewhat greedy, which may be a sin, ie you want to maximize your earnings and win the most money possible. however, the same could be said about a lot of professions, where you work your way up, etc. if you were a stock trader, you have to be greedy and optimize your portfolios to maximize returns, etc.

there however, is also the moral question of taking from people who are less able than you, or in a desperate money situation. hearing about a story where a man who looked devastated after losing a pot to my friend on a two outer made me think that although the man should not be gambling in the first place, that it was wrong for my friend to win that pot.

so my question is, what do people think of the moral implications of poker, and are there any christians here that can say how they deal with the issue?

[tylerdurden]

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if you were a stock trader, you have to be greedy and optimize your portfolios to maximize returns, etc.

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Flawed comparison. In the stock market, maximizing your returns does not directly harm others, whereas in poker, when you win, somebody has to lose.

[drudman]

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if you were a stock trader, you have to be greedy and optimize your portfolios to maximize returns, etc.

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Flawed comparison. In the stock market, maximizing your returns does not directly harm others, whereas in poker, when you win, somebody has to lose.

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I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

[Georgia Avenue]

Hi there, this is my first post to the 2+2 forum, and I'm glad it's about something so high-minded...please let me know if I violate any rules of etiquette of which I wasn’t aware…

I am a Christian who plays poker so I thought I'd give you my inexpert opinion. First of all--the bible says nothing about it at all directly, though there are some instances of negative connotations given to gambling, (Roman soldiers shooting dice over Jesus' clothes come to mind) but in general it looks down on that kinda thing (you know—the fun stuff!), so we can't be sure. I'm not much of a literalist, though, so there may be some chapter & verse types who would contradict me...I believe Maimonides the medieval Jewish philosopher has a chapter about it (negative no doubt), so, I guess officially it’s a sin. But so is sex before marriage and I sure as heck abused that one…and so do most Xristians.

To me the more pertinent question is: what aspect of poker (if any) is most corrosive to the soul—the winning or the losing? To win you have to beat someone, sometimes cruelly, as you say. But in my opinion this isn’t really hurtful to them. You and they came to an agreement about a game, and though you may have more information about how one should play, you’re not cheating them…so really it’s not a sin to take someone’s money…even if they’re a totally degenerate gambler, they rationally know the risks and took them anyway. It’s not a sin for say, Charles Barkley to whup my ass at 1 on 1 even though he has every possible physical advantage, or for some chess whiz-kid to deliver the smackdown on me in the park, even though he has mental and experiential advantages. That’s just competition.

To me, gambling is only a sin for the player who loses (I don’t just mean money). Most gamblers lose money, lots and lots of money, and for what? Because of the power they feel over the world when they (rarely) win. It’s a bitter rush, this feeling, like you know the universe loves you or something. They ruin their lives over it, and you could say that they put that feeling before the people that they love, even before God, and that is a sin. Now, poker players don’t really lose that much (most of us) and even if we’re total donkeys we don’t usually take out second mortgages or anything because of it. But we do sometimes get this feeling that we control luck, that we are the most powerful beings ever. That’s a little scary.

Now I’m not trying to put down anyone’s life-style, so please don’t take offense. I don’t think my opinions and beliefs are for everyone…I’m a bit too Kierkegaardian for most Xristians too…but it’s because of worries like this that I’ve been starting to limit my game to poker tourneys only, where the competition aspects are favored over the gambling aspects. Of course, I still do play…I just try to stay humble and open to the possibility that poker=gambling=sin, and that if it becomes a problem, I should consider quitting.

[Evan]

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I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

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No.

[BluffTHIS!]

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I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

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No.

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drudman, you are thus stating that the entire global economic system is some type of zero-sum game. Regardless of whether certain political philosophies might allege this to be so, you cannot prove that it is.

[drudman]

Then where does it come from?

I know virtually nothing about econ. I didn't say that the global economy is a zero sum game, I said it seems debatable. I don't think I'm wrong for thinking this either. Isn't there a limited amount of capital available in the world?

[drudman]

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I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

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No.

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Very insightful.

[BluffTHIS!]

My church, the Catholic Church, teaches that gambling is not in itself sinful but only becomes so if once gambles with money necessary to provide the livelihood for himself/family or necessary to meet his otherwise just obligations, or if one should cheat at such games. I would also personally think it morally unacceptable to hustle games with gambling addicted persons who cannot afford it, as advocated in that cynical masterpiece by Frank Wallace. The other aspect that has to do with morality is the legal one, in that you are normally morally obliged to follow all just laws. I personally have no problem playing in 'illegal' homegames or online because I do not believe the laws against same are just because they are not applied equally but to benefit various states and corporations that are allowed special exemptions for lotteries and limited casinos that have an interest in limiting competition.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Then where does it come from?

I know virtually nothing about econ. I didn't say that the global economy is a zero sum game, I said it seems debatable. I don't think I'm wrong for thinking this either. Isn't there a limited amount of capital available in the world?

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I am no economist, but a very simplistic example based upon a rural agrarian situation is where you are a farmer who produces in excess of your needs and I am a blacksmith. Along comes a trader who buys from and sells to me and vice versa, or perhaps we have no middleman. And perhaps one of us is better endowed in the way of talent or more industrious and thus is able to 'get ahead' more than the other. Of course so many of the poor in the world have no such opportunities as they can not even produce enough to provide for themselves. If you want to discuss this further for some reason start a new thread as this is now off topic, and much more complicated than the simple example I have used.