Should God Punish Evil People?

I heard Denis Prager, radio talk show host/political and socila commentator, say today that God should punish evil people. In fact, he said, he would not be religious if he felt God didn't punish evil people.


From time immemorial, God has been punishing evil people, who are defined as people who don't believe in the correct God. Ben Laden refers to us as "infidels." We are therefore evil and must be punished. All of the European countries who invaded the "New World" justified their policies as being willed by God. From Columbus on, they believed that the enslavement, exploitation, and extirpation of the naked infidels gave them strength and new vitality and was desired by God. John Underhill, addressing criticism of the burning of Pequot men, women and children in 1637 (well before Foxwoods) said that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents. We had sufficient light from teh Word of God for our proceedings."


Shouldn't we be beyond this by now?

Andy,


You wrote: "From time immemorial, God has been punishing evil people, who are defined as people who don't believe in the correct God."


As a long time listener I know Dennis Prager would not define evil people in this way. To him the God or religion you believe in (or chose not to believe in) is a matter of faith. He admits he can't prove the existence of God but he would assert that the existence of God cannot be disproved either. He would assert the world is made a better place when most people believe in a monotheistic God and try to live by the similar moral code that the major religions share. He would acknowledge that much evil has been done in the name of God, but even more good has been done due to faith in God and by practicing religion.


I'm not sure about what Dennis said today about evil people but my guess is that he believes they will be punished in the afterlife. However, I've heard Dennis talk a lot about the more common "bad people" (a.k.a., assholes). It is a matter of faith that bad and to a greater degree evil people are punished in the afterlife in some way. But I don't want to get into discussions of faith.


I strongly agree with Dennis that whether you are good or bad has little bearing on how likely you are to have good health, good fortune, or make your flush draws (in other words, the fact that bad things happen to good people and visa versa does not prove or disprove the existence of God). However, "bad people" suffer on earth in that they rarely have meaningful and deep friendships.*


Regards,


Rick


* Obviously some good people may lack friends due to shyness. The world isn’t supposed to be perfectly fair.

I think the whole idea of God meting out punishment is not something that would befit God (if God exists). This is one reason I have trouble seeing on the same level as those who speak of a vengeful God.


If I had a wish for what God would do about evil people, it would be to help them change internally so that they would no longer be motivated to do such evil things.


Some people speak of a just God, but the very concept of justice is itself a human creation.


In answer to your question, yes, we should be beyond such things by now; but we aren't. As a species our psychological and spritual development has lagged far behind our intellectual development and our achievement of technical expertise.


It is sad and ironic that those like the misguided Osama bin-Laden are the true "infidels", in that they act in a manner contrary to the true spirit of their own and other religions, and contrary to the true spirit of God (if God exists). Yet by following their specific dogmas and constructed thought-chains, they believe they are doing the right thing in a spiritual sense.


Delusion: it is in part an integral element of the human condition, since we have imperfect knowledge. It is also one of the greatest causes of suffering in the world.

Mark,


You wrote: "If I had a wish for what God would do about evil people, it would be to help them change internally so that they would no longer be motivated to do such evil things."


If God helped people change internally then it seems to me people wouldn't have free will. Isn't free will one of the keys that makes us human?


Regards,


Rick

What makes you think that dolphins and ferrets do not have free will? ...or that humans do?

"they act in a manner contrary to the true spirit of their own and other religions, and contrary to the true spirit of God (if God exists)."


How are we to know the true nature of God (if He exists)? It seems we cannot observe Him directly. We can only draw inferences from the evidence that is available to us. One source of evidence is religious texts, which indicate that God has vengeful and judgmental aspects of his nature. Among those who discount the validity of religious texts and instead look to the evidence of their own existence in His world, many may come to similar conclusions.

I didn't say that I hoped that God would change them internally; rather, that God would HELP them change internally. There is a big difference there--perhaps I should have made it more clear in my post.


When a person visits a psychologist to discuss problems and seek an answer or change, the psychologist, through offering insight, may be helping the person to effect internal changes. Similarly, a caring teacher counseling a troubled child may be helping the child gain insight, which can have a profound effect. Sometimes merely listening to someone can help that person clarify what is troubling him and thus make it easier for the person to reach an understanding and resolve.


So while I am unsure if God exists, I would see God more in this sort of role than in the role of a judge and punishment-giver.

Because desire for vengeance, hatred and the like are all baser human emotions. A Supreme Being would be far more advanced than we are and thus would be above such things. A perfect being would have no use whatsoever for such useless and harmful emotions as anger.


Generally speaking, more spiritually advanced a person is, the more likely they are to extend forgiveness rather than take revenge (this being a different issue than the issue of self-defense).


The notion that a perfect being, a supreme being, could be subject to childish fits of rage strikes me as quite illogical. Ascribing such human weaknesses and foibles to God strikes me as just another form of projection of one's own qualities.

I also have no doubt Prager does not define bad people in this way. He seems very knowledgable about religions other than his own and very respectful.


But others who believe God should punish evil people do think this way. This is what I find dangerous about the idea that God should punish evil people.


I do not believe Prager was referring to the afterlife. Prager believes, for example, in the death penalty as a just punishment for evil. He believes evil people should be punished in this life.


Of course criminals should be punished. It's the idea of people deciding what God's intentions are that is frightening to me. This is, after all, Bin Laden's message.

Two things:


1. Osama Bin Laden went after the US because of the fact that they still hold bases in Saudi Arabia and exert considerable outside influence on the Middle East. If he just wanted to blow up some "infidels", he could take out some party islands like Ibiza or Mykonos. That the US is not Islamic is only part of the story, not the whole story, as some of the pundits you see on TV would have you believe.


2. I don't think it is fair to criticize religion, or spiritual beliefs because you have delusional fools like Bin Laden running around. Who gives anyone the right to do God's work of punishing those who are evil? I've never read any passage in the Bible that tells you to kill people in the name of God. Delusional fools rally around this because it's impossible to dispute it. If people claim they are doing "God's work", how is a mortal going to convince them not to do it? Most religions teach people to be humble. Where is the humility in killing innocents and destroying lives?