Is this what everyone means when they say calling is the new raising?

William Wilson · #1 06-15-2005, 03:22 AM

I've been trying to read about this concept for the past few weeks, but have found very little. So, I've pieced a theory together based on what little I know. I understand I could be way off.

The hand below is an example of my interpretation in a $15 turbo on Stars. It's important to know that my read on the villain is that weak leads mean weakness. Earlier, I tripled his weak lead on the flop and won.

Is this even close?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (3 handed) converter

Button (t5995)
SB (t2750)
Hero (t4755)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t650) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t400, Hero calls t400.

Turn: (t1450) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t400, Hero calls t400.

River: (t2250) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t400, Hero raises to t1600 (4250 in pot).

microbet · #2 06-15-2005, 04:00 AM

In theory it sounds like a good idea to go into a lot of post flop play with someone you have a really good read on, but when he only has 7BBs you don't really have enough room - it is too easy for him to be committed to the pot.

Insty · #3 06-15-2005, 06:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My read on the villain is that weak leads mean weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does he have that is worse than king high jack kicker?
You are beat, no need to give him more chips on the river.

jcm4ccc · #4 06-15-2005, 08:12 AM

The problem with waiting until the river to make your bluff is that you give the villian the chance to strengthen his hand. In other words, he is less likely to fold on the river than he is on the flop or turn.

Also, you are already in the money, which makes your bluff less likely to work. And the SB has severely crippled his chances of winning if he folds on the river.

Also, you had no way of knowing that the SB would make a bet of only 400 on the river. If he had made a bet of, say, 800, you would have been in much bigger trouble. An 800 bet from the SB in this situation is practically pot-committed.

PrayingMantis · #5 06-15-2005, 08:45 AM

I'd say that you are playing way over the head of the players in this buy-in, even if you have a good read. Also, the stacks are WAY too short for such moves, in gereral. Such calls and moves, in order to take the pot on later streets, can be very powerful in certain circumstances (NL ring, MTTs and such), but I think this really isn't the spot. You are basically throwing away chips here, IMO. I'm not saying it woudn't work here or elsewhere against some very specific bad opponents, but usually in these situations you are basically looking to play strong and simple, and not tricky like that.

William Wilson · #6 06-15-2005, 08:53 AM

OK, so given the situation and the stacks, it's a bad move -- regardless of the results. I'll take that.

But what about the calling-is-the-new-rasing concept in general? Can anyone explain this to me? Does this play follow it?

PrayingMantis · #7 06-15-2005, 08:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But what about the calling-is-the-new-rasing concept in general? Can anyone explain this to me?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really relevant for SNGs, especially not at the lower buy-ins. This "concept" (which isn't really any concept, only some perspective about certain situations), is that a call can sometimes be more scary to opponents than a raise. You can take this idea into many directions. But it is really relevant only against thinking players, higher buy-ins, deeper stacks, etc, etc, etc.

William Wilson · #8 06-15-2005, 09:04 AM

Thanks for the input, Mantis.

Would you say two flat calls to set up a bluff is too much? Usually do you spring the bluff on the turn? Let's just say we're in the second or third hour of a Stars MTT for this question.

PrayingMantis · #9 06-15-2005, 09:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you say two flat calls to set up a bluff is too much? Usually do you spring the bluff on the turn? Let's just say we're in the second or third hour of a Stars MTT for this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is dependent on so many things. Really hard to answer like that. Bluffs in general is a really tough subject to discuss theoretically. If you have some MTT bluffs you want to discuss, maybe you should post them at the MTT forum. But sometimes the feedback you get about such hands is not extremely helpful, because a lot of it is about what we call "feel".

William Wilson · #10 06-15-2005, 07:31 PM

Does anyone know who first put the calling strategy into words? Is there a link? My searches, for the most part, have been futile.