from a $5-$5 pot-limit game

[Max123]

I sit UTG w/ $1100 in front of me with AK off, I make it $20 and get 5 callers including a very aggresive but respectable player one seat behind me (who is stealing a lot, and is up big).

Flop comes Qh7c8d. I check, it gets checked around.

Turn comes Kh. I check, the guy behind me bets $100. One call from the button who is a soft player who has been calling a decent amount.

What's my move?

[thebroker]

This may sound weak but since you don't have position I would probably call and then check the river. Then calling or folding to a bet at river would depend on my read. You say he is a theif. Could he put you on a small pair, such as 99 or 66? If so then I may call a decent amount on end. Maybe up to half the pot.

[Lurker]

Checking the flop out of position with the nut no pair is fine. But why did you check the turn? I think you need to bet the pot here to protect your hand. I would only check here if I planned on check-raising, but I don't think that is the optimal play. With a pot-sized check-raise after his bet, you'll rapidly find yourself nearly pot-committed AND you'll have to face another difficult decision on the river AND possibly lose the pot to a bluff from the aggressive player.

But since you already checked, why not check-raise the turn? I really think it has a good chance of ending the hand right there and will hopefully drop the other caller. I would raise to around $300 here, cutting down drawing odds while still allowing you room to make a decision if reraised. Why let flush and kicker draws take a cheap river card?

One problem I could see with this play is that you might as well get a bullhorn and broadcast the fact that you have A-K. That's good and bad, I suppose--second pair might believe you and fold, but an expert might come back over the top. All the more reason to leave yourself more room to maneuver and lead out next time.

The main problem I have with check-calling is that there aren't very many cards that I like on the river, especially against two opponents. A call here puts about $400 in the pot and you still have no idea where you stand.

[Matt Flynn]

Max123,

I believe I was playing in that game with you. If it was in Raleigh, please send me an e-mail.

The only relevant question is are you committed to going all in against one of these opponents? If so, you should bet.

If not, you have a decision. If both opponents are passive, you can bet the turn, fold to a raise with good conscience, and check the river if called on the turn (unless you spike another king). If your opponents are aggressive, just check-call. They'll do the betting for you, you won't put your stack at risk, and you won't get blown off the pot.

Matt

[limon]

[ben mo]

I disagree with you lurker. I think betting/raising is the right play in all three situations.. that is, he should have potted the flop out of position (a general rule i think works is that you should pot with ak out of position, and check behind when in position. remember: easier to steal from early position. easier to get paid off from late position)

On the turn he should bet out hoping to get called (or raised) by a worse hand.

After someone bets, he should check-raise. Maybe the turn bettor is a slowplayed set, but most likely it's someone trying to steal, and slowplaying sets is out of fashion anyway.

we can talk about it next time i check-raise you from the SB with bottom pair/no kicker..

ben

[Matt Flynn]

Like limon says, usually you bet that flop.

On the turn, though, they know what you have. If you aren't committed to putting your stack in and bet anyway against aggressive opponents, you are teaching them to steal from you.

Matt

[Phat Mack]

One nice thing about betting the flop, as limon suggested, is that it will create some confusion as to whether you have AA KK AK etc. If you always check the flop when it doesn't hit you, it will be too easy for your opponents to steal when you miss and escape when you hit.

[limon]

listen if you called this pre flop raise w/ jj waht is the last thing you want the rasier to do when the flop comes Q high. its as simple (or as complicated) as that. you have to think way beyond your cards in simple situations like this so your ready for much more complicated ones. poker is a game of "likelies"(sic) never do anything your opponent is likely to want.

now, help me out. is this a public game, when and where.

[Lurker]

Well, I guess I should explain my flop play a little more...Against standard players, yes, absolutely, I'd bet out on the flop. But from his description it sounds like his main opponent has been stealing and is likely to try a bluff bet himself, so I'd look to check-raise here and expect to take it down. I don't think I'd bet here against that opponent because I would be more likely to face a bluff-raise that I couldn't call.