River bluff in massive 10/20 pot

PokerPrince · #1 01-09-2003, 10:09 AM

Great loose 10/20 game with a lot of preflop aggression and post flop passivity. Four limpers to me in the CO and I raise with AQo (suits play no roll in this hand). Button coldcalls and appears to only have a few SB's left in front of him. SB calls and BB, a solid player(SP), three bets. I know this player very well and play with him frequently. He would probably only do this with a large pocket pair(minimum JJ) or something like AKs or AQs. Anyways one of the limpers caps it(means nothing), all others call, I call, button calls. The pot is already plumper than Rosie O'Donnell after Thanksgiving dinner.

Flop- K,J,6 rainbow

SP bets out, all limpers call, I call, button calls all in.

Turn- K,J,6,9 full rainbow

SP bets out, two limpers call, I call.

River- K,J,6,9,K

SP bets out, two remaining limpers fold, I raise without hesitation. SP mucks without hesitation. I show my hand and take the side pot of $80. SP makes a jokingly crude remark, Button takes the main pot with JTo.

I know that SP is a player who can make large laydowns and he's perhaps the only person at the table I would attempt this move on. I thought there was a good chance Button(all in) was on a draw and I could perhaps take the main pot as well with "nut no pair" if I can make SP muck. Was this bluff a smart move or was it just not worth it? I very rarely pull out stuff like this from my bag of tricks in such large pots but I felt at the time that it was worth the attempt. I risked $20 to make an $80 side pot and perhaps take down the whole pot. Later on SP admitted to folding QQ. I don't agree with his fold. In hindsight I feel I made a foolhardy play as there are very few hands that SP could have threebet preflop with that he could not call the river with. Any comments are welcome.

PokerPrince

PokerPrince · #2 01-09-2003, 10:41 AM

I risked $40 to win a $100 side pot. Man those 16 hour sessions really fry your brain. Sorry for any confusion.

PokerPrince

ben mo · #3 01-09-2003, 10:49 AM

First of all, if I follow your action correctly, you risked $40 to make $100, not $20 to make $80. Even if you can count on "solid player" to lay down a hand like QQ, I'm not sure that's a worthwhile gamble. Also, I think people often confound "a person who can make large laydowns" and "a solid player" -- there's nothing solid about making any kind of laydown into a $540 pot. (maybe "dense")

b

astroglide · #4 01-09-2003, 12:39 PM

raise/call/call/raise the river is an exceptionally fishy way to play a hand

in all but a few instances, you'll be shown the nuts (or close to it) or a busted ak/aq/whatever

meaning no slight to you, i've found the river raise bluff business such as this is typically made only by decent but not great players such as 1yr hpfap students or slightly perceptive maniacs. it doesn't dawn on the crappy players to try it, and the great players know better.

of course once in a blue moon they try to bank on the 'know better' bit too, but that never seems to work either.

Ulysses · #5 01-09-2003, 04:23 PM

If SP mucked w/ a 27BB pot for one BB holding pocket queens when the board paired the King, I'd stop looking at him as a solid player.

If you held AJ instead of AQ, I think this will often be a value raise on the river, which is one reason your opponent's fold would be so bad.

I think the raise is fine. AQ will sometimes be the best hand here and you can often get a player like that to throw away something like TT here, especially with an all-in hand for protection. Note that you have to be absolutely right about the player's ability to fold too easily here. Most players will call w/ just about any pair in a pot that big.

I doubt he really threw away QQ. I'd say it's more likely he threw away AQ, TT, or something that completely missed like ATs.

Ed Miller · #6 01-09-2003, 05:12 PM

I think you should consider mucking your hand for two more bets preflop, given the hands you put SP on and the number of limpers in the pot.

I agree with you that your river raise was reckless. You are basically hoping that he has exactly QQ (or AQs) and that he doesn't see through your silly bluff (why didn't you raise the flop or turn, Mr. I have AK?) and that he makes a huge error and fails to call in an enormous pot and that you can beat the allin. All for two bets that you otherwise wouldn't put into the pot.

Ulysses · #7 01-09-2003, 05:33 PM

That many ands in your description of the parlay that has to come through for him to win makes me rethink my initial response and agree with you that the raise is indeed reckless, even against an opponent like this.

andyfox · #8 01-09-2003, 07:14 PM

A comment about the pre-flop raise:

I hate limping pre-flop, especially from the cut-off, but I might have made an exception here. This kind of game, I'd just call with A-Q. Since the button is short-staked, this descrease your chances of buying the button with a pre-flop raise.

I agree with your characterization of your river raise. The river King should have made SP less prone to lay down a big pocket pair.

PokerPrince · #9 01-09-2003, 07:56 PM

As soon as my chips were in the air I wondered what the hell I was doing. I agree it was a bad bluff. If I wasn't convinced before this nice tear-apart session has done just that. Boy if there's one thing the 2+2 posters are good for it's making a player feel like a bag of crap for a bad play. LOL! Thanks guys.

PokerPrince

anatta · #10 01-09-2003, 08:52 PM

"meaning no slight to you, i've found the river raise bluff business such as this is typically made only by decent but not great players such as 1yr hpfap students or slightly perceptive maniacs. it doesn't dawn on the crappy players to try it, and the great players know better"

lol, I played my first holdem game 1/1/02 and I made this move for the first time on 1/6/03. It didn't work, looked real obvious..."no, really guys, that 4s made my hand! Please fold."