My first $10/20 escapade

[FishyWhale]

...showed a profit of $566 in 5 hours which is quite unreal for someone who is used to $3/6. Needless to say I´m very happy about it, especially since I´m just recovering from a $3/6 losing streak which has reduced my bankroll rather severely.

Funny thing is, the $10/20 game where I play (just like $10/20 stud) looks uber-beatable, just one or two other players who played about as tight as I do. Post flop the loosies play of course somewhat better than $3/6 players, but you can bluff and semi-bluff more successfully, and that leaves you with more options to win a pot compared to $3/6 (and speaking of options, you can also check-raise better which isn´t unimportant either). The only problem I have - and there really is just that one problem - is that of my bankroll, but I have some reserves, so even that is manageable. So who knows, perhaps my regular game in the near future wont be $3/6 but $10/20 where, judging by the skill level of my opponents, I should easily be able to make 1 bb/h which would be three times as much compared to what I would earn in stupid student´s job such as that of a call center agent or some other stupid hack which I have absolutely no desire of doing.

Anyway, a few hands for discussion.

1) K9o big blind, free play, 5-way.

Flop: Jc8c4h. Checked through.
Turn: Ts. SB bets. SB is pretty loose preflop and will bet a lot of stuff postflop. I hesitate a short time, perhaps saying something like "a moment please", and then decide to raise. Comments?

2) Qc8c on the button, three callers to my, I call (I would have folded Q7s without hesitation), SB call, BB check, 6-way.

Flop: Q74c (rainbow). Checked to me, I bet three callers.
Turn: 3, rainbow complete. Old man (rather loose-passive, but not completely untricky) on my right bets, I think a little bit, wondering why, in case he has got the straight, isn´t check-raising me, but I fold with almost 6-to-1 pot odds. Comments on my preflop call and my turn fold?

[Ulysses]

Nice hit. If you feel confident playing against these lineups, good for you. Only thing I'd caution you to be aware of is that at this limit you're much more likely to run into 1 or 2 really skilled players at the table, so just be aware of who those are. The biggest difference I've found between 6-12 and 15-30 is that the range of playing styles (ie: most passive to most aggressive, most loose to most tight) is much wider at 15-30, so you often need to be able narrow down your opponents' holdings from a much wider range of possibilities than at lower limits.

As for the hands:

Hand 1: I would have bet the turn, but once someone beats me to it I probably fold. I like this move against a stronger player, not against a loose SB who will call you down with a pair.

Hand 2: Preflop call is fine. Turn fold is fine. Old man may have Qcrap suited, but that's all you have too and you lose to 34s, 56s, Q9+, Q3s, so I'd fold as well in this situation.

[FishyWhale]

Hand 1: I would have bet the turn, but once someone beats me to it I probably fold. I like this move against a stronger player, not against a loose SB who will call you down with a pair.

Well, his looseness is more confined to preflop, postflop he doesn´t play that badly (even though he is still too lose) and - what´s most important - he is a player who would try to take the pot on turn with very little. I also have a tight image which he is aware of, so knowing that, would you still "probably fold"?

[gaylord focker]

As far as hand one, I wouldnt make this play unless I had a very good read on the bettor, you have no hand and no draw. Hand two, dont let anyone convince you that Qc8c should be played in any position except for in the blinds. Its a trash hand that belongs in the muck.

[Clarkmeister]

Qc8c is quite playable in that spot. Its really not that close provided you are better postflop than your opponents. And lets face it. If you aren't better postflop than your opponents, you have far more serious problems to deal with than 'should I limp behind 3 limpers on the button with Q8s'.

FWIW, HPFAP21 recommends limping with even Q5s on the button with many poor playing limpers to you.

[Ed Miller]

In his article in CardPlayer this week, Mason talks about a hand where he called on the button with J7s. Certainly Q8s is a better hand than J7s...

[gaylord focker]

Everybody assumes that they play way better than thier oppenents post flop. If you are calling with Qc8c, you dont think you are going to be in there with the worst hand 90 percent of the time? Convincing yourself that you have positive EV with this hand in any position is just a joke, unless you are a world class player. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, or does not understand the game.

[Ed Miller]

Convincing yourself that you have positive EV with this hand in any position is just a joke, unless you are a world class player. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, or does not understand the game.

I'm not sure I've ever played Q8s outside the blinds in my brief poker career. But I certainly wouldn't be calling someone like Clarkmeister a fool because he has...

Furthermore, in addition to your inappropriate invective, I think you are mistaken. There are almost certainly situations where Q8s is playable outside the blinds. An obvious example is when everyone folds you to you on the button and the blinds will fold anything but the most premium hands to a raise.

[Ulysses]

what´s most important - he is a player who would try to take the pot on turn with very little. I also have a tight image which he is aware of, so knowing that, would you still "probably fold"?

Well, that makes it closer. Really depends on the read. What might he have here? Absolutely nothing, you're fine. 4 or 8, you're fine, he probably won't call. A Ten, trouble, he'll probably call you down. A nine, perfect, goldmine if he catches the Queen!

Thinking it through, the only thing you have to worry about besides him is if someone happened to be after you w/ Q9s, 79s, or T8s. That's more than likely not the case, so based on your read, it was perhaps a very nice play.

I've definitely made moves in much more marginal situations than this based purely on a good read.

[Ulysses]

As far as hand one, I wouldnt make this play unless I had a very good read on the bettor, you have no hand and no draw.

I agree on needing a very good read to make this play, but it's important to note that he did pick up an open-ended straight draw on the turn, and on the top side his draw is to the nuts.

Hand two, dont let anyone convince you that Qc8c should be played in any position except for in the blinds. Its a trash hand that belongs in the muck.

Three limpers to me on the button w/ Q8s in a loose-passive game? I'll play that every time in that situation.