Fold this or no?

ltb · #1 06-09-2005, 02:14 AM

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 raises, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

BB is extremely passive (over about 120 hands) - the only times I've seen him bet are when he has a hand (definitely something that beats bottom pair). I figure with only bottom pair, there's no way I have him beat.

Do I fold this on the river, or should I pay him off?

ClaytonN · #2 06-09-2005, 02:16 AM

Raise the flop for as many bets as it will go.

therockofgibraltar · #3 06-09-2005, 02:19 AM

I like raising this flop. Lately there has been a lot of these kind of hands and almost always the consensus had been to raise, reraise or cap [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The hand will play differently after that but if not, I would fold the river. No way our bottom pair is any good, right?

slipoker · #4 06-09-2005, 02:20 AM

I agree, raise that flop, especially with position to at least get a free card on the turn. I call to the river to see a diamond or ace, but UI I fold this hand on the river and don't pay villain off.

milesdyson · #5 06-09-2005, 02:21 AM

You should really be raising the flop. If MP2 has AK, AQ, AT, or KQ, you would like him to either call two cold or fold. If my raise got it heads up and BB checked to me on the turn, I would probably take a free card and fold the river UI if bet into.

ibankonu · #6 06-09-2005, 02:23 AM

Raise this flop. With your position, you get the free card if the turn doens't help any.

As for how you played the hand, I fold the river to his bet.

ltb · #7 06-09-2005, 02:24 AM

Thanks guys.

How differently should I be playing this hand if I don't flop bottom pair? For example, let's say the 6 was a 5 instead. Should I still be raising the nut flush draw here?

ClaytonN · #8 06-09-2005, 02:26 AM

No, in that case you would just call

However, let's say the pot was raised preflop and you had AkQd. You'd raise the shat out of this because you have flushdraw AND overs.

Flushdraw + overs = raise it
Flushdraw + 1 over = call it
Flushdraw + pair = raise it

MarkL444 · #9 06-09-2005, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BB is extremely passive (over about 120 hands) - the only times I've seen him bet are when he has a hand (definitely something that beats bottom pair). I figure with only bottom pair, there's no way I have him beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you asking us if you already know?

detruncate · #10 06-09-2005, 03:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No, in that case you would just call

However, let's say the pot was raised preflop and you had AkQd. You'd raise the shat out of this because you have flushdraw AND overs.

Flushdraw + overs = raise it
Flushdraw + 1 over = call it
Flushdraw + pair = raise it

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree.

The pot is reasonably big and I'm happy facing the field + the pf aggressor with 2-cold with only a nut flush draw + ace over -- this is a legit case of wanting to clean up outs (especially given the increased chance of being up against a better ace due to the pf raise).

We're pretty close to neutral EV if two opponents put chips in the pot, so a 3-bet from the pf aggressor + a call from the flop aggressor isn't that big a deal. If more call, it turns into a value raise, and we might get to pump it further if the flop aggressor 3-bets. We're also happy to give ourselves the option of a free turn at least some of the time.

The downside is that we open ourselves up to the possibility of getting 3-bet HU, but that's an acceptable risk which should be more than offset by the upside. You don't have the save the pot very often by driving out better aces to make up for a whack of worst case scenarios.

SSH talks about this stuff in more depth if anyone wants to explore it further.

The added equity that a flopped pair brings makes the raise more attractive in the abstract, but it might make us inclined to go for overcalls given that we're no longer concerned about domination (we reverse dominate better aces). It would depend on how many people are left to act and what we think gives us the best chances of extracting bets -- the pf raiser might well raise an overpair or strong overs, so calling could give us a chance to 3-bet or cap when it comes back around.

edit: grammar + clarity