Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Here's a simple hand that I played in a $30-$60 game at The Bellagio last night that has some merit for discussion.

I had only been in the game for a few minutes when I was dealt a pair of aces. An unknown player limped in, I raised, and only the two of us saw the flop after he called.

The flop was 8-6-5. Suits don't matter for this discussion, but the flop was not all the same suit. My opponent checked, I bet, and he called.

The turn was another five. My opponent bet and I called.

The river was a jack. My opponent checked, I bet, he called and my hand was good. (I never saw his hand.)

All comments welcome.

MM

[PokerPrince]

I'de like to know why you simply called his turn bet. Thinking he may attempt a bluff again on the river perhaps? If he did hold a five he would surely checkraise you on the turn instead of just betting out. Explain what was going through your head when you were playing this hand please.

PokerPrince

[Billy LTL]

Putting myself in your opponent's shoes:

I limp. You bet. The flop shows us a medium straight draw and I check, you bet. The turn pairs the board, I BET you call.

If he had any kind of hand at all (a set or a straight) on the turn he should/would have check-raised so you know your AA is still good.

The problem facing you is how to maximize the remaining bets to enter the pot.

I think you should have raised the turn.

True, he might have folded then and there but equally he might have paid to see the river as he obviously had some kind of pair (44?). Would he have called the river bet after being raised on the turn and failing to improve? Given what you've told us about this hand I think the rewards of raising the turn would justify the risks involved.

Best of luck, Billy (LTL)

[Ginogino]

Mason:
I am unfamiliar with the level of skill at the Bellagio $30/$60 game, so I can't speak with any confidence as to what the open-limp might mean, but when your opponent check-calls your flop bet you have to figure that the flop has given him some prospects for the straight draw -- something like pocket 9's, 7's or 4's or something like 89s, which also gives him a pair and a straight draw (possibly gutshot) going into the turn.

His lead-bet on the turn probably doesn't indicate trip 5's (he is unknown to you, but wouldn't most folks try to check-raise you if they held trips?). So he is probably looking at two pair with some kind of straight draw -- wouldn't this be an opportunity to push you off an overcard hand, if that's what you held here?

I assume that your lead-bet on the river was influenced by the idea that the river didn't improve him, and (from his viewpoint) might have helped you if you held overcards (to jacks and fives), so that you couldn't count on him to bet if you checked and give you a chance to check-raise the river. I'd guess that you might have gone for a check-raise if the river had been a three or deuce.

Why not raise his turn bet? I'd suppose mostly this was a result of not knowing him (would he try for a check-raise if he'd hit trips?) and to give you a chance to improve if he had hit trips. If you raise the turn and he re-raises, what do you do? Merely calling the turn gives you a chance to improve and allows you to find out something (how frisky your opponent is) on the relatively cheap.

Gino

[Kevin J]

If he did hold a five he would surely checkraise you on the turn instead of just betting out.

Not necessarily. A sophisticated opponent may try for 3 bets.

[Broyle Dunson]

I havnt read the others but with the flop being coordinated like that your in a huge lead heads up or next to dead most likely as any hand that beat aces there would be a made straight or set,but you dont want to give a free card with that board that would hit his kicker if he has a pair or complete a draw so the board also dictates the flop bet.Also he may chase you with only overcards as the board wont look as scary to him and he will "take one off".I dont know his experience level but his bet on the turn means he did a "Im going to call so I mite as well bet",OR he mistakenly thought his hand improved to 2 pair and was good,OR he made a play, OR he stuck a bad one on you and your now way behind.At any rate you could raise yourself off this hand on the turn if you raised and he repopped you,and if hes out of line you,d lose a river bluff bet by him,or he might catch his overcard and call the river so it seems a call by you on the turn has a double benefit,so I like the call as oppossed to an information raise or Heaven forbid a fold.His check on the river dictates a bet by you and he calls.You made an extra 60 and lessened your exposure.I mostly play 15/30 so if im way off be gentle.

[Vehn]

I posted a similar hand in small stakes the other day and received a lot of the same responses, i.e. "you missed bets". However I tend to disagree. I think most players who have some sort of clue fold on the turn when popped unless you have a history of being supertricky here. He does not have the pot odds to go for his presumed 5 (or worse) outer. You want him to continue to call or bet into you with the worse hand, not fold, plus you protect yourself from getting "outplayed" if he actually does have the better hand.

[Diplomat]

I tend to agree, for the reasons you mention, and some others.

Specifically, say the bettor has a hand like A8s, 99. If he bets the turn and does not get raised, he might think his hand is good, and bet/call the river, depending on how scary the board turns out. If he bets the turn and is raised, he might a) think he is drawing thin or dead and fold right there; b) only call/raise the river if he improves signifigantly, in which case Mason looses extra bets (3 or 4 instead of 2)

I like the flat call on the turn, because it pretty much guarentees one more bet going into the pot on the river, either by mason or by the bettor. Ok, the bettor may have been bluffing with a straight draw or something, but he might try it again on the river if a blank hits. Mason's flat call conceals his hand -- if I were raised on the turn, I would probably muck unless I had a five or a huge draw. However if my bet was flat-called, I would have difficulty putting Mason on a hand -- AA? JTs? 44?

Unless the player is quite loose or trying to snap off a bluff, I doubt he would call a turn raise and a river bet with a hand like A8.

Just my two cents, probably way off here -- just how I think. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[mike l.]

i think you played it very well. on the turn most players would raise and that is a mistake.

"The river was a jack. My opponent checked, I bet, he called and my hand was good."

what i want to know is would you have value-raised the river if he bet again?

[Noo Yawk]

If you raise the turn, it could cost you more if you're behind and make you less if your ahead. By playing the way Mason did he was able to gain a bet on the river. This type of play will either make you one more bet or cost you only one more bet. Particularly in a heads up situation with an unknown player. Too many players like to get aggressive here, and end up overplaying hands that are way ahead or way behind. Over the course of time losing one extra bet when you win, and putting in 2 extra bets when you lose is huge difference in your overall win rate.