#1
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Avoid mechanical river plays?
Recently started playing at $1/$2. Table VPIP is still around 25%. Villain seems to be a fish, VPIP 60+% 0% pfr, aggression under 1 (but only over 20 hands).
I think most of this hand is standard until the river. I know it seems that the general rule in micros dictate that I call this - but I really think I'm beat - do you call here? Thanks in advance Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls. Flop: (7.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls. Turn: (5.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls. River: (8.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero ??? Final Pot: 9.25 BB |
#2
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
You're beat often, but you should call. You'll go long dry spells without winning in a situation like this, but one day you'll pick off a bluff here, a weak jack there, and you'll feel like Ed Miller's bastard stepchild [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#3
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
This is a must call. He could definitely have the 9, but you only have to have him beat about 11% of the time. The second 9 can be a tempting card for a fish to bluff on. Don't reward him for doing it.
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#4
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
do you guys consider the flush possibility too?
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#5
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
I shouldn't be admitting this but I missed the flush.... It's been way too long of a day. Nevertheless, you should still call the river.
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#6
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
[ QUOTE ]
do you guys consider the flush possibility too? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, but I'd still call this down given the pot size. Heads up and it's a no-brainer. |
#7
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
[ QUOTE ]
You're beat often, but you should call. You'll go long dry spells without winning in a situation like this, but one day you'll pick off a bluff here, a weak jack there, and you'll feel like Ed Miller's bastard stepchild [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, mechanical as in you usually know the outcome, but occasionally someone throws a wrench in the gears and this happens: Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>. Flop: (5.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls. Turn: (3.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls. River: (7.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls. Final Pot: 9.75 BB Results in white below: Hero has Qc Ah (two pair, aces and queens). MP2 has Ts 6d (one pair, tens). Outcome: Hero wins 9.75 BB. Now this is an extreme case that happened today, I saw this joker do things like bet into and then call raises with middle pair on a four flush board several times, but same general idea. |
#8
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
I know it seems like a nobrainer [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] but its not heads up, there is still MP1. My thinking was these two guys must be drawing to something - do you consider the possibility of a C/R from MP1 (if he finally hit the flush/trips)?
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#9
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
Easy call. I don't think he's calling the flop with a 9 unless he's holding 98 or, unbelievable, Q9, and I think he'd C/R with either of those holdings. I'd say he's more likely holding AT, or maybe AJ/KJ/QJ.
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#10
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Re: Avoid mechanical river plays?
[ QUOTE ]
I think most of this hand is standard until the river. I know it seems that the general rule in micros dictate that I call this - but I really think I'm beat - do you call here? [/ QUOTE ] It's not whether you think you're beat, but how probable it is that you think you're beat. The non-mechanical part of the river play is this assessment. The play itself almost always is mechanical. You're calling unless you have a *VERY STRONG READ* against this specific player that he would *NEVER* bluff. How strong of a read? You're getting 9:1, which means he must be bluffing less than 10% of the time. Realistically, you can only expect to get estimate these bluff donk-betting percents within 5-10% of accurate if you're really good at it. That means if you estimate he has a 0% chance of bluffing here, you still *might* fall into your range of uncertainty. There's just not enough information on this hand (call-call-bet doesn't say much) to turn this into a fold. On the other hand, if MP1 check-raises, I think you can safely fold, as river bluff-check-raises with multiple players in the pot are exceedingly rare (note all of the extra information). |
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