Turn -> River or Turn & River combined

[FlyingStart]

When should you use the odds for turn or river seperately, and when should you use them combined?

I guess a flush draw or OESD i a good time to use the odds for Turn & River combined since it will most often give you the nuts if you hit. It's not that easy of course. Elinating opponents on the flop can reduce your pot equity enough to make a bet on the turn non-profitable, but still profitable to call a bet because of pot odds. But atleast it's a pretty straightforward decision to call or not with a flush draw or OESD.

What about overcards?

In SSH overcards are often counted as partial outs because someone may have a better hand or will draw to a better hand even if you hit. What I'm not sure about thogh, is that when counting partial outs, should you then use odds for Turn & River combined (Since outdrawing is allready accounted for)?

This was not very well written, but I hope someone get's the idea and can give some advice

[Borno]

If you mean implied odds... you should ALWAYS be using these to be included with your immediate pots odds to decide whether to call, fold or raise.. with the principal of equity as well. This only doesn't apply when it is a close call in a small pot where you should tend to fold.


...

Another question: When are over cards counted as FULL 3 outters.. I've seen this done a few times

[itsmesteve]

I think you're referring to charts that list the odds for outs to hit with either one or two cards to come. I pretty much exclusively use the odds with one card to come after both the flop and turn. If you use the odds with two cards to come to make a decision, you have to account for the extra bets you must pay when you don't hit on the turn and need to make one (or more ) calls on the turn to see the river. After seeing the turn i re-evaluate (as i may no longer have the same number of outs, depending on the board.)

Hope this is what you were after. . .
steve

[FlyingStart]

It's closer, but the things you said I already understand. You should not chase a flush headsup with no overcards. But if 4 or more people see the flop or it's 3 players and a big pot, you should chase it (and often bet it on the flop) because by the river you are likely not to have put in more than a 33% share of the pot with a 35% to make the flush on the flop.

But with overcards your draw may already be behind or get drawn out itself. I guess it depends on the situation, I just don't want to undervalue overcards that's all. I almost always use Turn & River combined with OESD and flush draws and almost always just the turn for overcards.

[UncleSalty]

For the most part I use just the odds to hit my outs on the next card, rather than the turn and river combined. If you are going to use both to justify a call, you have to include the implied odds of any bets you expect to call on the turn if you don't hit (as another poster said.)

I agree with your assessment of using both for determining pot equity on the flop and deciding between a bet/raise or just a call.

Discounting your outs with overcards has a lot more to do w/ being dominated than with fearing re-draws (Although both are valid reasons to discount the outs.) The point of discounting those outs is to force yourself to require higher compensation for the chance you will be beaten, even if you catch your outs. Thus, I will still use the odds for just one more card, rather than 2 to come.

[moot]

[ QUOTE ]
You should not chase a flush headsup with no overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woah woah woah, WAIT. What?

You should DEFINITELY be "chasing" this.

Let's say you're heads up and there are 4 SBs in the pot and now your opponent bets. You are getting 5 to 1 on your call with 9 outs to make your flush. Your immediate odds to make your flush on the turn are about 4 to 1, not to mention the implied.

PLEASE DON'T FOLD. Unless you're against me, then I'm more than happy to see you fold strong draws when you're getting more than enough odds to call.

[FlyingStart]

I typed that a little fast.. Yes should call if it's 4 SB on the flop.. but you should not bet it, and you should not call if it's only 2SB.

Anyway, the poster above: When you calculate odds on the flop for overcards, what does the pot need to give you for you to continue? 1-14 or something? If at first you only count your overs as partial outs and then only the odds for hitting the turn, it should be something like that, which will mean you will fold overcards extremely often