Hi Mason,

Warren Whitmore · #1 01-01-2003, 04:30 PM

Let me start by saying all of your books are great and have made all the difference in my being a winning player. I have also enjoyed Mike Caro's writting's. He certainly gives a lot more weight to tells than yourself. With your saying at limits at or above 10:20 <0.1BB/hr and Mike > 1.0BB/hr. An order of magnitude difference is tough to accept. I am therefor going to share my 2 cents worth on the subject and would appreciate your opinion.
My own personality type is obssesive compulsive with an unhealthy dose of detatched mixed in. In my opinion the effect of tells is zero with a standard deviation of 0.3 based on the individual in question. I put myself at the lower extreame of negative 0.9 BB/hour here's why using non poker examples.

How I know that I can't read people:

I was taking an English class at night school working towards a chemistry degree. After the final a very beautiful girl approached me, looked me in the eye's, and said "hey wanna come back to my dorm room and study" to which I said "why would we study now we just finished the final." to which she said "DUH". I diden't figure out what she wanted until 20 minutes later.

How I know I can be easily read:

I went to a friends house, they were using a ouji board. They asked me to join them I said sure. They would ask questions and this plastic thing would move to the answer. So I figured these guys were having some fun with me so I asked the "spirit" If it would go to specific places of the board which I would specify if I asked it to go to them in my mind without saying anything out loud. It went to yes. I asked it to go to 25 different locations all of which it did unerringly. I then decided I was pushing it so I asked the "spirit" if it would go to any spot I chose on the board where I asked it in my mind without me touching it. Once again 25 for 25.

Last example:

I make 25% more on the internet than at the same level game live.

Al Schoonmaker · #2 01-01-2003, 10:47 PM

Hi,

Even though your remarks were addressed to Mason, I thought I'd start the new year by commenting.

First, you are to be congratulated for understanding and admitting your limitations. MOST people don't do either.

Second, I must challenge your statement that you have an "unhealthy dose of detachment." Detachment creates the objectivity to which I just referred.

Third, I wonder whether you are an engineer, scientist, accountant, or a member of another profession that emphasizess objective analysis. I suspect you are, but have so little data that it's only a suspicion.

Fourth, the differential on the internet can easily be caused by the greater number of hands. You may be earning 25% more per hour, but about the same per hand.

Thanks for writing, and I hope you don't mind my butting in.

Regards,

Al

Warren Whitmore · #3 01-01-2003, 11:13 PM

Thank you Al for your response. As for my occupation I am a statistician for the total oil corporation.

MRBAA · #4 01-02-2003, 11:58 AM

At low limits, I think tells can be useful. I don't play high limits, so don't know. I also think tells are more useful in stud than in he, because you can correlate them with someone's board. For example, I was playing 1-5 stud and made kings up on fifth with no pair showing. I bet and one loose passive opponent called. I bet sixth and she called. Her board was ragged, and I put her on either an under pair or a lower two pairs. On the river, I watched her view her card before I bet. She took a quick look and her whole attitude changed from passive resignation to determined aggression. She glanced at her chips, then sat up straight and waited for me to bet. I check/folded my two pair -- that's how sure I was she had made a hand. In this instance, she chose to show her cards -- she'd been calling with a pair of nines and had tripped up on the river. This kind of very obvious tell is rare but very valuable when it occurs. Also, I do think Caro's weak/strong ideas can apply in low limit games. That said, I do better online as well, so I may be over-rating the value of tells. Certainly, they are insignificant compared to proper play knowledge and feel for how to adjust to different types of games.

J_V · #5 01-02-2003, 11:01 PM

For one year I have averaged about $90 dollars per hour online, while live I would estimate around $40. I believe only a small portion of the reason you do better online has to do with tells used against you. Multiple games and faster speeds being the main reason.

mdlm · #6 01-05-2003, 05:49 AM

For one year I have averaged about $90 dollars per hour online

That's amazing. What game are you playing? Are you playing multiple tables?

Jeffage · #7 01-05-2003, 10:04 AM

So you're telling us that you made more than $150k playing online poker (or did you play less than full time)? Not impossible, but definitely a little hard to believe.

Jeff

AmericanAirlines · #8 01-06-2003, 06:02 PM

Ahh... my question exactly. "For how many hours was the average"...

Recall the poster is a statistician. There were spots in my graph of win/losses where the hourly rate was 50-60/hr. at 5-10 stud near as I can remember (disk crash) ... but it didn't last.

Also, I suspect working for Total Oil is a full time job in itself. Don't know about the rest of you folks, but if I'm playing for money at a significant level, full time job and pro-poker (wannabe in my case) don't go together! Not enough sleep to do either well!

Sincerely,
AA

J_V · #9 01-06-2003, 06:24 PM

3 games of 15/30. 2.5 times the hands x 3 games. I do play quite a bit of shorthanded and HU. The internet is quite a tool, most players seem afraid to try and get the most out of it. I get a weeks worth of poker in during one session.

J_V · #10 01-06-2003, 06:32 PM

You need time, skills, and pretty decent discipline. I am in school hardly ever going to class, so I have time. Some players don't realize how much money is able to be made online if you can beat the middle limits. Players argue that you can't play three games at a high rate. But, you can - and you don't need to. Lets say you can beat a B&M for $30 an hour at 15/30. Lets say you play three games online and your play deteriotates to $15 an hour. Well, at 2.5 the speed thats $37. Multiplied by three games and we have close to a $100. It becomes like playing video game, your speed and recognition becomes much better very quickly. I am debating moving to 2 sites at five games. I know of some playes that make more than me, that do this.