Double Gutter

PokerFink · #1 06-05-2005, 04:17 AM

I haven't seen villian do anything noteworthy. My image is probably somewhat loose if villian has been paying attention, which is doubtful considering he is a short-buyer.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($90.85)
SB ($395.65)
BB ($179.45)
UTG ($50)
UTG+1 ($51.40)
MP1 ($35.80)
MP2 ($103.80)
CO ($94)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls $1, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($6.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $5, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $5, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($16.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($16.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $10, Hero raises to $30, UTG+1 raises to $45.4 (All-In), Hero calls $15.40.

Final Pot: $107.30

So obviously this worked out very well in the end, that's not why I'm posting this. My main question is whether you think checking behind on the turn is the right move, or should I bet? How much should I bet? Note villian's small stack.

Also, does anyone muck this on the flop? Villian's bet suggests he hit the flop pretty well, and I love doublegutters because they are so hidden. I'd probably muck a flush draw.

soah · #2 06-05-2005, 04:21 AM

Folding on the flop would be pretty much horrible.

JaBlue · #3 06-05-2005, 04:46 AM

Turn check is good.

dtbog · #4 06-05-2005, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My main question is whether you think checking behind on the turn is the right move, or should I bet? How much should I bet? Note villian's small stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like checking behind here. As you can see by the river play, Villain loved his hand (as you picked up on when the flop came out) -- so if you bet the turn, he probably would have made a huge c/r and blown you off of your draw.

Did he show you ATs? That turn check screams "my hand got better and I want to slowplay it"

-dB

PokerFink · #5 06-05-2005, 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like checking behind here. As you can see by the river play, Villain loved his hand (as you picked up on when the flop came out) -- so if you bet the turn, he probably would have made a huge c/r and blown you off of your draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I read the turn check for weakness. I figured he had something like KQ that had just gotten a lot worse. But without a read, I had no idea if I could push him off his hand, and a pot bet would not commit me to calling a raise incase he got desperate and pushed.

[ QUOTE ]

Did he show you ATs? That turn check screams "my hand got better and I want to slowplay it"

[/ QUOTE ]

No he didn't, although I see the logic behind what you're saying.

Villian showed down 10-8. So his turn check was weak, and I have little doubt that I could have pushed him off his hand on the turn. The eight was obviously a gift from the poker gods.

ThePokerGods · #6 06-05-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The eight was obviously a gift from the poker gods.

[/ QUOTE ]

..and where's my burnt offering? Huh!?!?!

Los Feliz Slim · #7 06-05-2005, 11:19 AM

I like the turn check. If he's weak he's not going to call (and he's most likely not on a draw you need to make him pay for), if he's strong you might get pushed off. Even if you don't hit your draw on the river, if he checks again he could be easily moved off his pair.

gulebjorn · #8 06-05-2005, 11:29 AM

You're getting 11.5-5 or 2.3-1 pot odds on the flop. Your chances of hitting on the turn are 17% or 4.7-1. You have to be pretty sure of your implied odds to chase this one IMO. I think in this case, you must extract another 11.5$ from him if you hit on the turn, just to break even. You have to be able to do this every time, and you have to be sure about it in order to make the call.

Am i calculating this correct?

By the way, did you consider just calling the river? QJ could have been out there. Not saying you shouldn't raise, just wondering...

xcrack999 · #9 06-05-2005, 11:37 AM

I'm just curious. Why is folding on the flop bad?

xorbie · #10 06-05-2005, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting 11.5-5 or 2.3-1 pot odds on the flop. Your chances of hitting on the turn are 17% or 4.7-1. You have to be pretty sure of your implied odds to chase this one IMO. I think in this case, you must extract another 11.5$ from him if you hit on the turn, just to break even. You have to be able to do this every time, and you have to be sure about it in order to make the call.

Am i calculating this correct?

By the way, did you consider just calling the river? QJ could have been out there. Not saying you shouldn't raise, just wondering...

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to make $11.5 on the turn if you hit to make it break even if you never get to see a river. The thing is about these type of hands is it's one of two things:

(a) A strong hand which will likely bet hard on the turn and blow you off your draw if you miss, but which will for that reason easily pay you off $11.5 if you do hit the turn.
(b) A weaker hand which will probably bet small on the turn or check and let you see a free river, in which case calling the flop is fine just based on pot odds.