A mid tourney hand from 2+2er

[SossMan]

Converter is wonky, so forgive the fuzzy details.
Hero in this hand is a 2+2er. UTG Big stack has been relatively aggressive since obtaining big stack. Hero is new to the table and has only played one hand so far (a preflop open raise from MP that won the blinds).

We thought that the stack size made this hand difficult preflop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) converter

SB (t3500)
BB (t5329)
UTG (t14305)
UTG+1 (t21514)
MP1 (t9226)
Hero (t7020)
CO (t5085)
Button (t6450)
Blinds 200-400 (25 or 50 antes?)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG limps, Hero limps, folded to BB who checks.

Flop: (t1625 or 1850?) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t800</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2800</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t4904</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t2104.

[MLG]

there's no shame in folding this preflop here. As it played out you can't really fold the flop.

[woodguy]

If UTG is being aggro big stack, then there is nothing wrong with limping behind to flop TP/TK or TP/GK, as I would expect UTG to raise a better A, and I'd hate to isolate UTG PF, only to have him limp/re-raise PF on me.

I want to see a cheap flop here.

If anyone behind me raises I have no problem letting this go PF either.

On the flop, if UTG comes along after BB's raise I would reallly dislike my hand, but as it stands you must call here.

Regards,
Woodguy

[SossMan]

We talked about it more and I'm still not sure if I like folding, limping or raising preflop. I think it's close between all three. If he has a little more, like 10k, then I think it's an easy raise. If he has less, like 4.5k or less, then I think it's an easy push. At his stack size, though, he's pretty forced to play conservatively.
Once he sees the flop, he's going to the felt.

[fnord_too]

If I read this right, hero over limps pre flop, raise calls (pot committing but not all in) on the flop?

Limp is fine given the scenario I think. Pushing is the only other possibility I'd consider, but I don't think that is the most +EV play here.

Flop - why didn't he push the reraise when calling leaves a trivial ammount? Obviously he's going to showdown here. As to not raising the flop, that would be bad Egon.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop - why didn't he push the reraise when calling leaves a trivial ammount? Obviously he's going to showdown here

[/ QUOTE ]

He is committed to the flop, and everyone knows that, but it entices the bigger stack to come along cheaper (if the BB folded) if he's on a bad draw and wants to see the turn. Pushing would be a big overbet, and we don't want to scare a hand like AT from seeing the turn to spike his ace. Just because we're PC'd, it doesn't mean that we have to stop thinking about the big stack, and his odds.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
We talked about it more and I'm still not sure if I like folding, limping or raising preflop. I think it's close between all three. If he has a little more, like 10k, then I think it's an easy raise. If he has less, like 4.5k or less, then I think it's an easy push. At his stack size, though, he's pretty forced to play conservatively.
Once he sees the flop, he's going to the felt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of his stack size I think limping is perfect. He has what? 17-18BB? Loosing one changes his options not one whit. He has a hand that has good potential and an aggressive big stack acting in front of him. This is a great 1BB investment IMO. He is going to hit what? over 1/3 of the time. Most of the times he hits his hand will be good. On the times he hits, he will probably get a little action whether UTG hits or not. When UTG hits, too, he probably doubles through 2/3 of the time and busts 1/3 of the time. (Obviously these are all swags). Limping feels like about a +T1-2K proposition to me, but with most of the down side coming from those minor miss and fold hits and a good portion of the upside being a tremendous boon.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop - why didn't he push the reraise when calling leaves a trivial ammount? Obviously he's going to showdown here

[/ QUOTE ]

He is committed to the flop, and everyone knows that, but it entices the bigger stack to come along cheaper (if the BB folded) if he's on a bad draw and wants to see the turn. Pushing would be a big overbet, and we don't want to scare a hand like AT from seeing the turn to spike his ace. Just because we're PC'd, it doesn't mean that we have to stop thinking about the big stack, and his odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I completely misread the part where BB reraised, not UTG. I think BB reraised all in, but I'm not sure.

[SossMan]

flop action is:
utg bets 800, hero makes it 2800, BB checkraises for about 5k total, UTG big stack folds, hero calls.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
Once he sees the flop, he's going to the felt.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's kinda why i like folding preflop. Limping seems like asking to win a small pot or bust yourself.