Here's an exercise for all Hold Em Players

[balt999]

Here's the scenerio:

You get delt K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] and open raise in a MP/LP....Only called by the BB

The flop comes A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] ..

The BB checks to you...what do you do?

Against a calling station?
Against a maniac?
Against a tight aggressive player?
Against a Passive player?
In a low-limit game?
In a mid-limit game?

Next scenerio....same hand..same flop...only this time the BB bets out....what do you do against the aforementioned opponents...

Thanks....

[skp]

While you can drum all kinds of reasons for betting, it's almost always better to check i.e. in all of your scenarios.

[Dynasty]

While you can drum all kinds of reasons for betting

I only need one- worse hands will call. Specifically, you will get called by any Ace, flush draw, probably a straight draw, and possibly a pocket pair.

You can't make money if you don't bet and you are much more likely to get called on the flop than on the turn or river.

[bernie]

along with the fact that they wouldnt put you on that strong a hand if you bet out....if theyre going to call at all, theyll call the flop with this board. many wont bet here, theyd check it, which is one reason why id bet out. since they wouldnt, they wouldnt put you on it...

if bet into, id call.. but sometimes id raise. he may just be testing and wont put anymore in once you call behind. another case of 'who raises this hand on the flop...' they wont necesarily put you on it. ex....you could play it like a free card play, and possibly suck an extra bet out on the river. lots of options when ya flop a hand like this...

b

[skp]

You are heads-up here and the flop is AKK, albeit with a flush draw. If you bet, the guy will call with the hands you mention but the problem is that most of the time, he ain't gonna have any of the hands you mention i.e. lots of guys three bet from the bb with an Ace high hand, pocket pair, two braodway cards etc when the original raise is from steal position.

Most of the time, your flop bet will be met with a muck.

IMO, this is an obvious time to check.

[bernie]

not an obvious check....

you can use how the other player would play this hand as a factor. and how he may think you might play it. this should be a key factor in how youd play this hand...

not saying id always bet out here, though that is my first choice, but id definitely alter my play depending on the player...

if checked to, why not bet? they may just think youre trying to buy it.

sometimes, that flop bet will be the only bet you may get out of em. it's the weakest bet you can make. any other bet, turn or river, they may see as power on a board like this and fold anyway...but a bet out may catch them off a little, even if theyre looking to muck their hand. some players view this as,' yeah right...like you'd bet that here...' then believe you on the turn bet...to which you can check the turn and look like your buying it on the river again.

some players will get overexcited and c/r with this hand....boy, that's a great play...kills your action real quick. when i see that i think, 'way to maximize, dude...'

lots of options here, id have em all in my arsenal

b

ps. of course some guys will be ultra paranoid and say ' you HAVE to bet out!!! no free cards...he could hit his one out for the royal....make him pay!!!' <= that's a joke...btw..

[butters]

i'm betting out 100% of the time.

[riffraff]

If there is a $50,000 bad beat jackpot and a low limit game, you want to check this flop. Let those baby pairs spike a set on the turn and hopefully quad up on the river for some big bucks.

[skp]

Let's say that you raised with 88 on the button. Only the bb calls. The flop comes AQT or AK9 or AKK etc. The reason we bet our 88 here because we expect that the guy will fold and give us the pot. Indeed, that is generally what will happen. You bet. He folds.

Now, the probability that he will fold on an AKK flop when we have KK is even higher (as we have crippled the deck a lot more than in the 88 scenario).

In any event, the things you say are all true but the fact remains that the best play is to check.

Sklansky posted a similar problem a couple of years ago. He said that his students generally come up with some creative reasons for betting much like the ones you have given. Many posters, including me, agreed with his students. OZ said we were all nuts.

2 years wiser, I now agree with OZ.

Check!

[msk]

I would bet the flop against a true maniac and then call his raise, and then he'd be convinced my bet was a bluff. I could then make a lot of $$.

I would check against anyone else, bet the turn, or even only call the turn, waiting to raise the river if the other player got lucky enough to almost catch up.

Here is a true story example of why:

I just sat down in an online 10-20 game. I raised with JJ from late position, got 7 total players, 4 before and 2 after me. The flop came JJx. (Glad it was online, live I would have spit up my gum.)

Checked to me, I checked.

Turn was 3 --- J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] [J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] .

Checked to me, I gritted my teeth and checked. Guy after me bet, button raised, early player reraised, I capped. Wow.

River was a 7.

It was capped again.

One guy had TT, another 33, another 77.

Several people told me that a bet on the flop would have put me heads up with Mr. TT. And that was true, they were all pretty good players, and no one believed I would check twice with such a monster.

I won about a zillion $$ on this hand.

Mark