very common misconception people seem to need cleared up sometimes.

[citanul]

From another thread, and has been posted elsewhere, so I'm not picking on the guy in specific, it's just for general education, or something:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to even play the first 2 levels. I would much rather get junk for 2 orbits at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very very very very very very wrong.

go check out your pokertracker stats broken down by blinds levels. one of the goals of your sng poker career is to be + chips at all levels. particularly at the low blinds / low stakes combo, you should be quite ahead. people play really really bad. passing up spots that you are likely significantly ahead is bad. passing on spots to make a lot of chips with small investment, similarly, is bad. passing on spots to make lots of chips with large investment, because you have good reason to believe you have the best hand against a terribl playing payoff box, is bad.

they are bad, theoretically you are better. you are supposed to use this to your advantage, not wait for the worst of the lot to bust out all the time. this will become particularly more important as you move up in stakes to the highest levels.

i wish there were much more to add here, but there isn't.

citanul

[luckyplayer]

I think there is a lot more to add. I've definitely felt that I'm not taking advantage of bad players by only playing AA-QQ+AK strongly, playing all other pairs for sets, and getting rid of all other big broadway unless in late position.

But what is to be done differently? I'm a noob, and my only real experience is through books I've read. And most on this site say that the books don't apply to sngs very well.

suggestions?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a lot more to add. I've definitely felt that I'm not taking advantage of bad players by only playing AA-QQ+AK strongly, playing all other pairs for sets, and getting rid of all other big broadway unless in late position.

But what is to be done differently? I'm a noob, and my only real experience is through books I've read. And most on this site say that the books don't apply to sngs very well.

suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

for starters, i honestly believe that playing a strategy much, if not exactly, like the one you just described as the one you follow, for the first couple levels, is quite good enough to be a winner at, hmmm... probably up to the 50s, maye even higher.

the point is however that like, folding top pair top kicker too much, folding top pair NO kicker too much, not getting all in when you have the nut flush draw in a big pot with 3 other players all in, little things, big things, etc, are all leaks.

at all the levels, against all players, there are things you can do that take chips from them, pretty much. everyone makes mistakes, or has their own little quirks, or whatever, and taking advantage of them is key. if you see that a player goes all in early with 22, or A, or some junk like that, you should be fine running it out with him with say, TT if he's the pairs guy, or AJ if he's the ace guy, etc. taking edges is what it's about. exploiting bad plays. and that's just talking about preflop.

the obvious and overused answer to your question of "what more is there to be done" is play and research the game. post hands, post questions, read. good luck.

citanul

[kyro]

I money way more often when I double up in the first couple of rounds. I'll take a bustout or two early if it means the majority of the time I have chips to play with for the rest of the tourney. Nice post.

[Scuba Chuck]

Citunal, I'm sorry, but I'm going to hijack your post.

Due to my current streak of (call it whatever you want) crap, I've decided to change parts of my game. I've learned so much about poker from this forum, that I think I'm getting myself into trouble. In particular advice like, don't bet the full pot, but 1/2 or 2/3 because you want to try and keep weaker hands around. (think about AK v A5 for example). In fact, I've found a lot of my flop betting to be a source of problems which I'll get into in a moment. Another problem has been trapping with AA early.

The following has been my conclusion and you can berate me all you want. I agree that this style of play will increase my ROI.

Let's say my ROI at the $33s is ~24%. I think that this style of play will increase my ROI by ~2% maybe 3%. Regardless, this is what I estimate the longer term results to look like.

ROI .........Variance
24% .........+/-15%
28% .........+/-40%

I don't know what sample size to add to this assumption, and I wish I could report actual numbers. But my variance experience has been far more emotionally strenuous than I had anticipated.

We all want to find edges to help us increase our ROI, but at what cost? I’m sure I’ll revisit these strategies as I move higher in limits, but at the $55s and lower, I’m tired of my AK getting check-raised all in to get sucked out by a better kicker on the river. The fish are soooo stupid. They think they can “make moves” with such small stacks, but it’s just not so. I’m pretty much committed to a hand like AK with an Ace flop. In these scenarios, I used to bet just over the pot by like 25 chips or something. But, as I’ve been taught by this forum, that this betting behavior is just not as smart, as it won’t keep weaker aces around (yada yada yada). So I believed you (and still do), and I’m sure my ROI in the long run (however long that is) will be higher. But in the short run, the variance to my bankroll is starting to bother me.

In conclusion, at this stage (or these levels) I have decided that my emotional state doesn’t care for the increased variance just to achieve a little more ROI.

Scuba

[Voltron87]

other easy hands to add to the level 1-3 arsenal are all pocket pairs. play them for T50 or less. If you hit a set you play. If you don't you fold. Kind of difficult, i know.

[adanthar]

To follow up on citanul's post, it is very possible to beat Party SNG's long term without ever playing poker, just following a big 'push/fold X in Y position/Z players in' hand chart. Saapbo won money even without the Z part.

In order to beat the game at all levels for the optimal amount of money, however, you must learn to actually play it. People that advocate raising huge with big pairs to get it heads up are, by and large, without a clue of what to do when that fails and they get to the flop against *horror of horrors* three people with their overpair. Usually, they get their chips in, lose, and resolve to raise more next time 'to get rid of the guy that called with top pair' (why?) This is potentially decent Party SNG play and even works well most of the time because a good chunk of the players will call off a hundred chips preflop with A9o, but it's bad poker.

How to play different flops is a question without a set answer. I personally draw my line at 6 outs; if I see a board where most* of the potential calling hands are 6 outers or better, I'll play my one pair/overpair/2 pair hands much more strongly, sometimes even disregarding pot odds, for various reasons too detailed to go into here. If I feel I have the best hand and am likely to keep it, the goal becomes to extract every chip from the other guy. Other times, I have red queens, the flop is 876 of clubs, there are three people in and I'll simply check/fold when someone bets and gets a caller. That may mean folding the best hand; tough. That's playing poker, too.

*not 'some'; a K72 board with 2 spades just isn't that scary, folks.

There are far too many things to talk about here than can be summarized in one post, but basically, it comes down to this: when you raise aces to 75 because three people will call you and they play bad postflop, it's much better than when you raise to 75 because, with five limpers, you think you can chase two guys out of the pot.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
variance discussion

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people take variance easier than others. I think I'm pretty lucky in that regard, but I have my own swings and I do occasionally switch games or limits (play sats, for example) to get away from a bad streak. Others will have their own methods. Even the occasional ROI lowering move (for example, you pwn some limpers by pushing when a raise is just a little bit more effective) can be good if it reduces tilt along the way.

Pushing AK on an Axx flop because you're scared of A5 is not one of those moves, IMO. If your game is suffering THAT much, switch games and come back later.

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
I money way more often when I double up in the first couple of rounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed! Actually, even if I can get to 1200 I feel much more confident entering levels 4 and 5.

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
other easy hands to add to the level 1-3 arsenal are all pocket pairs. play them for T50 or less. If you hit a set you play. If you don't you fold. Kind of difficult, i know.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I actually will give myself up to 10% of my stack to call w/ these hands after level 1.