Flush threat on turn, fairly common situation

Robert Ezzo · #1 05-12-2005, 02:01 PM

This seems to come up quite often in my games, and I'm wondering how others handle it. I only have played 9 hands with UTG+1 at this point, so I don't have any real read on him yet, although I had put him as slightly passive in two other pots he played out before this one:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, MP2 folds, Hero ???

When this happens on the river, I just make the crying call, but when it happens on the turn, what's your next move?

- Call, and check/call the river?
- Fold immediately, since if the person has improved to a flush or straight, you're drawing dead?
- If the board has no straight possibility here (a Ten of diamonds, for instance), does it change your perception of the hand?

I think I call these kind of hands down too often, so I'm wondering if I'm making a mistake or not. (And yes, I know "it depends". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I'm just looking for an average "against an unknown opponent" answer.)

Bob T. · #2 05-12-2005, 02:12 PM

If you don't know anything about your opponent, calling them down, probably isn't a big mistake. They could have a weaker ace with a diamond kicker, and be making a semibluff raise, or you could be drawing dead. Or they could just be betting the scare card, with nothing. It happens. Call, find out where you are at, and then maybe you know something about them in the future.

If you have seen them use this pattern two or three times, and they always show a winner, then maybe laying down is OK.

tipperdog · #3 05-12-2005, 02:18 PM

I will usually muck in this spot. Note that:

1. The large series of pre-flop limpers indicates that a K-high suited hand is increasingly likely (LL players limp with KTs etc and raise with AKs, AQs);

2. Passive play from your opponents on the flop is indicative of drawing hands;

3. UTG+1 is raising a large field, including two players yet to act on this round. MP2 and button could easily have flushes, but UTG+1 appears not to care; and

3. Although a flush looks most likely, UTG+1 could be raising on other hands that leave you drawing very slim. Slowplaying a set would have been unwise on the flop, but I've seen many worse plays. A5 is also possible (though unlikely).

If the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] were the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], it wouldn't change anything for me. Yes, a straight is impossible, but AT is more likely than A5.

Smaller fields change my approach, as, of course, do specific reads on the raiser.

Rafael_Luiz · #4 05-12-2005, 02:30 PM

TPTK is too strong to lay down in a multiway pot. I dont think you are calling toom uch on the river. It is possible he is raising with a big drawing hand on the turn, such as a pair and the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], or perhaps a 4 and a high diamond. When the pot is raised preflop, like it should be, you have to call down.

johnwit · #5 05-12-2005, 02:35 PM

- Call, and check/call the river?

looks like a good play here just to look him up since you dont have a real good read on him yet.

chesspain · #6 05-12-2005, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TPTK is too strong to lay down in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard and fast rules like this one will cost you money in the long run.

brettbrettr · #7 05-12-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TPTK is too strong to lay down in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard and fast rules like this one will cost you money in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

And its just wrong. TPTK in a HU pot, sure. But in a multiway pot, how in the hell could like a lot of action for only a pair?