Trapping A Donk with a Donk.....

crunchy1 · #1 04-21-2005, 08:49 AM

Both Villians in this hand are 'standard' bad. BB's VP$IP is 90% over 50+ hands. CO is around 43%. Aggression stats for both seem fairly normal for players of their caliber. Both Villians are quite predictable.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, CO caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero doesn't like that card.

Comments:
-PF ISO 3-Bet
-Flop Lead
-Turn Stop'N'Go
-Plan on the river....

Moozh · #2 04-21-2005, 08:58 AM

I love the turn bet with a monster in an attempt to get the BB trapped for extra bets. The only thing to be a bit concerned about is whether a passive player will play back at you after the stop and go. I actually prefer this line against better players than worse ones.

I think the river is a very clear bet and call a raise. I'd think about folding if it were two more back to me.

Aces_up07 · #3 04-21-2005, 09:02 AM

I personally like how you played preflop, flop and turn. I'm curious to know if you were planning on bailing completely if the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] had come on the turn instead of the river.

On the river, I personally am too much of a sucker to fold this hand unless I have to call two bets at some point, I'd be real scared though if BB wakes up.

TheDelChop · #4 04-21-2005, 09:03 AM

On the scale of really really really bad cards for you, the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] might just be #1. I disagree, you are going to be raised by a hand that beats you too much to bet here. I think this is a simple check and call if its not two back to you.

PF iso is a solid play.
Turn stop and go is a great manuever here espeically since the BB is coming along too.

bobhalford · #5 04-21-2005, 09:07 AM

I'm not too sure the villain necessarily has you beat with the 8 His cap preflop could mean JJ-AA. Of course, he could have AKs or AQs, but I think a big pocket pair is likely. I'd just check/call the river though - would not be fun to get 3-bet. However, the turn raise makes it look to me like he's got a set (that happens to be lower than yours). I don't see why a flush or open-ended straight draw would semi-bluff on both the flop and turn. It looks like he's jamming the pot with a set.

PokerBob · #6 04-21-2005, 09:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Both Villians in this hand are 'standard' bad. BB's VP$IP is 90% over 50+ hands. CO is around 43%. Aggression stats for both seem fairly normal for players of their caliber. Both Villians are quite predictable.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, CO caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero doesn't like that card.

Comments:
-PF ISO 3-Bet
-Flop Lead
-Turn Stop'N'Go
-Plan on the river....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have gone nuts on the flop. If BB is indeed on a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw as you clealry fear, then he will pay the whole way. What is the point of trapping a donk if you don't charge him the max?

TheDelChop · #7 04-21-2005, 09:20 AM

Yeah, make them pay the max for their stupid draws.

Aces_up07 · #8 04-21-2005, 09:23 AM

but if CO slows down on the turn because you capped the flop, now not only is BB getting a fantastic price to draw, but you missed out on extra money.

Isn't it better to get the two extra bets on the turn rather than the two on the flop? besides if the turn card comes out ugly, you might have a chance to get away if there is a lot of action there.

PokerBob · #9 04-21-2005, 09:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but if CO slows down on the turn because you capped the flop, now not only is BB getting a fantastic price to draw, but you missed out on extra money.

Isn't it better to get the two extra bets on the turn rather than the two on the flop? besides if the turn card comes out ugly, you might have a chance to get away if there is a lot of action there.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is better to get 2 bets on the turn, rather than 2 on the flop but the stop-n-go move may cause a "just call" form the CO as well. In this case hero got lucky, as CO raised. But in a majority of cases (IMO), the stop-n-go will freeze CO in his tracks.

crunchy1 · #10 04-21-2005, 10:46 AM

My thinking.....

Hand Reads:
I was pretty sure CO had AA/KK after his PF cap/Flop Raise
BB was playing 90% of his hands and could've had any two random cards.

If I 3-bet the flop:
-I might drive out BB on a hand he'd call 1 more with but not two
-I'm probably only getting one bet out of CO on the next two streets
-I'm pretty much committed to leading on the turn
-This will really slow down CO who I'm pretty sure has AA/KK given the PF cap and flop raise

If I call the flop raise:
-I can keep BB interested and might get some extra bets on the turn
-If BB folds I can pretty much count on CO betting the turn and get in a checkraise
-If BB calls I can lead the turn and probably get a call from him and CO
-If I'm lucky I'll get a raise out of CO and have a chance to pick up 9+ BBs

Anyone want to berate this thinking??

Both in terms of winning percentage and # of BB's won I'm still unsure which line gives me the best numbers?

What about the river action.... Who leads? Who check/calls? Why?