Possibly 2 thin pre-flop calls in the same hand (50 6max)

jhall23 · #1 04-18-2005, 03:57 PM

So being in the sb in this hand I think that my call's in this hand might be pretty thin but I am not sure how thin. Relevant reads below.

MP is the tool from my other post yesterday. He is the combo LAG/Calling station. Only call's when bet at, but bets when checked to. He is in pretty much every hand.

CO is is pretty loose pre-flop, in like half the hands but doesn't raise that many. About 5 percent or so. Post flop seems average but more on the passive side.

BB is brand new.

First PF call was just a min from MP which means nothing but probably some sort of bad paint, small PP or SC. Since MP is in the pot too I decide to call since he is deep.

Second PF call now there is closer to a real raise but I have good pot odds as well as good position on the raiser on the flop. My plan was to check raise push if I get a draw with an estimated 12 outs or more and play it straight otherwise.

Drawing hands suck OOP of course but I am not sure how thin these are.

Feel free to comment on the flop as well. One thing I noticed I was able to raise over the top of the short stacks all in. Should I feel weird about doing this since it is illegal in most live cardrooms. I didn't intentially make my raise to get this situation to come up, but after BB checks then called my raise I felt he wants to get his chips in now so I might as well let him.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($79.3)
BB ($50)
UTG ($8.5)
MP ($24.87)
CO ($99.35)
Button ($105.63)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75, BB raises to $4, MP calls $3, CO calls $3, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($16) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets $5, CO calls $5, Hero raises to $15, BB calls $15, MP raises to $20.87 (All-In), CO folds, Hero raises to $75.3 (All-In), BB calls $31 (All-In).

Turn: ($163.17) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($163.17) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: $163.17

jhall23 · #2 04-18-2005, 08:28 PM

Anybody? Comments on either PF call here? Curious how many think either is a mistake or whether you make the call(s) as well given the info I provided.

pzhon · #3 04-18-2005, 08:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75,

[/ QUOTE ]
FOLD!

[ QUOTE ]
BB raises to $4, MP calls $3, CO calls $3, Hero calls $3.

[/ QUOTE ]
FOLD!

What was that nonsense about getting good pot odds? Each time, you only have a 25% discount, but you have to act first on each round, and your hand is garbage. Fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($16) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)

[/ QUOTE ]
It was a good idea to flop the nuts. Next time you call a reraise out of position, try to flop quads, since it is harder to be outdrawn.

jhall23 · #4 04-18-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What was that nonsense about getting good pot odds? Each time, you only have a 25% discount, but you have to act first on each round, and your hand is garbage. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

By pot odds I don't ever consider that I am getting some sort of discount, I don't know what gave you that impression. I am just looking at calling 3 into an 13 dollar pot simple as that. I thought those were ok odds with good relative postion to the PFR on the flop. I deliberated and made the call.

[ QUOTE ]
It was a good idea to flop the nuts. Next time you call a reraise out of position, try to flop quads, since it is harder to be outdrawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curious do you think I got out drawn on this? I knew these were possibly questionable PF calls and it's really the only reason I posted this hand to get some feedback on that part.

thatpfunk · #5 04-18-2005, 10:03 PM

These are not obvious folds for a halfway decent postflop player against bad opponents.

pzhon · #6 04-18-2005, 10:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By pot odds I don't ever consider that I am getting some sort of discount, I don't know what gave you that impression.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the way I think of it, a discount.

Consider the second call, when you are last to act after the reraise, and need to put in $3 to see the flop. If you put in $3, the pot will be $4 per player. Your second call costs 25% less than that $4, so you have gotten a 25% discount (because of the dead money). Is your suited two-gapper, out of position and against someone who raised and someone who reraised, worth 75% of 1/4 of the pot? No, and it's not close.

You need a much better hand to defend the small blind than the big blind, since you get a smaller discount, you are in a worse position, and the big blind acts after you preflop and may reraise, as happened here.

[ QUOTE ]
I am just looking at calling 3 into an 13 dollar pot simple as that. I thought those were ok odds with good relative postion to the PFR on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. It is not that simple. You don't just need to make a better hand or push out the preflop reraiser. You need to beat a field of 3 other players who have shown strength. It is wrong to think of this as 13:3 pot odds as if you were heads-up. The median best hand one opponent will make is a pair (not counting a pair or better on the board). The median best hand several opponents will have is two pair.

[ QUOTE ]
I knew these were possibly questionable PF calls and it's really the only reason I posted this hand to get some feedback on that part.

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel very strongly that your calls were horrible. Obviously, they can't cost you more than the $3.75 you put into the pot here, and I think they cost you less equity than that. However, you will have many opportunities to make this mistake, so in the long run, you will give up a lot if you call in this situation.

Sponger15SB · #7 04-18-2005, 10:18 PM

I would bet out on the flop. Check raising shows a tremendous ammount of strength given that board.

pzhon · #8 04-18-2005, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
These are not obvious folds for a halfway decent postflop player against bad opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
They should be.

People overestimate how frequently they will be able to turn trash into gold. I don't believe a half-decent postflop player can play a suited two-gapper profitably out of position against someone who reraised.

Do you limp UTG with Q9s? If you did, and someone raised behind you, someone smooth-called, and then someone reraised, would you call? The situation is not exactly the same, but if you would instamuck to that reraise (and I do with much better hands than Q9s), why wouldn't you instamuck here?

TheWorstPlayer · #9 04-18-2005, 11:00 PM

They are bad and you are good. They raise trash and call raises with trash. That is their weakness. You are tight and make them pay when they are dominated. That is your strength. Why would you call raises with Q9s? That is allowing their weakness to become your weakness. It is just not good, especially OOP. QJs I can see. But Q9s simply has NO chance of dominating them and WAY too often it will be a simple check/fold on the flop which is bad because it means you can't punish them for raising preflop with trash because you won't hit enough flops hard enough. Nice job hitting this one, though.

jhall23 · #10 04-18-2005, 11:32 PM

Thanks for the reply's everyone. I was curious to see how thin everyone thought these were as I supsected this was a very borderline call at best. Good stuff to think about.

Given my reads on the two known players and assuming the BB has a real hand after pumping up out of position I thought it leant to pretty easy play post flop, but I don't know how often a two gapper flops well enough to have this be a long term profitable play. Obviously I only start feeling 1/2 way decent if I flop top two or better made hands or some huge draw. I would fold just top pair with no redraws to any agression. So in the heat of the moment I went for the loose call. With no reads this would be a very automatic and easy fold for me. I no doubt wold fold this UTG most of the time (with a very ocassional raise for shania in a 6max game). I would probably never limp it.

[ QUOTE ]
Consider the second call, when you are last to act after the reraise, and need to put in $3 to see the flop. If you put in $3, the pot will be $4 per player. Your second call costs 25% less than that $4, so you have gotten a 25% discount (because of the dead money). Is your suited two-gapper, out of position and against someone who raised and someone who reraised, worth 75% of 1/4 of the pot? No, and it's not close.

You need a much better hand to defend the small blind than the big blind, since you get a smaller discount, you are in a worse position, and the big blind acts after you preflop and may reraise, as happened here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pzhon, I really like your idea of discount. This is not at all what I was thinking you meant when I read that. Very interesting way to think about calling raisesh. Kinda like looking at it through a different instrument, ala a science experiment, for me.