JJ preflop - two maniacs

[TheWorstPlayer]

Converter not working for this hand for some reason, but there is no flop or anything, so I'm just writing it out.

Player 1 is 62/29. I have seen him get WAY out of line several times. He has gone all in for 25 into a $1 pot with a draw. He has re-raised all in with 95o. Etc.

Player 2 is 57/25. I have seen him also get WAY out of line several times. He has check/raised all in with TPWK against a PFR. He has open pushed several times into small pots. Twice he got called and lost his stack. He had absolutely nothing either time, no hand, no draw.

So, what's my play?

***** Hand History for Game 1902471334 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Saturday, April 16, 02:45:07 EDT 2005
Table Table 37260 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Hero ( $60.52 )
Seat 3: XXX( $50.1 )
Seat 4: Player 1 ( $14.3 )
Seat 6: Player 2 ( $57.8 )
Seat 2: XXX( $24.4 )
Seat 5: XXX( $26.08 )
XXX posts small blind [$0.1].
Player 2 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero[ Jd Js ]
Hero raises [$1.5].
XXX folds.
XXX folds.
Player 1 raises [$4].
XXX folds.
Player 2 raises [$14.75].
Hero...?

[Spladle Master]

I would fold.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hand ranges?

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand ranges?

[/ QUOTE ]

Player 1 has:
an overpair ~ 5% of the time.
an underpair ~ 20% of the time.
two overcards ~ 20% of the time.
one overcard ~ 50% of the time.
no overcards ~ 5% of the time.

Player 2 has:
an overpair ~ 5% of the time.
an underpair ~ 20% of the time.
two overcards ~ 20% of the time.
one overcard ~ 50% of the time.
no overcards ~ 5% of the time.

[radioheadfan]

JJ seems a little marginal given these 2 players willingness to gamble. You're gonna get called by player 2's likely two overcards if you push, creating a coin flip you don't want.

What you could do is smooth call the $14, take a look at a flop and proceed from there - that way player 1 is likely to join the party and increase your pot odds.

If player 1 pushes preflop and player 2 pushes on top, well I go along for the ride with them. Doubtful they have higher pairs than you so you're likely to be +EV.

It's high variance to play with maniacs, so don't feel too bad if you lost this one.

For what it's worth, I think in this case its fairly likely they they have at least 1 of each others outs.

[TheWorstPlayer]

What's my equity against those ranges, and why do you think it is the same range for a maniac to re-raise me as it is for a manic to re-re-raise a maniac? Not saying that it isn't, but I am curious as to your thought process.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
You're gonna get called by player 2's likely two overcards if you push, creating a coin flip you don't want.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you want to be in a situation where you get the money in while ahead, WITH dead money already in the pot? This is actually an ideal situation.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
What's my equity against those ranges, and why do you think it is the same range for a maniac to re-raise me as it is for a manic to re-re-raise a maniac? Not saying that it isn't, but I am curious as to your thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're in bad shape against an overpair. You're in good shape against an underpair or less than two overcards. You're about even with two overcards.

I don't think the range of the second maniac is EXACTLY the same as the first, but it's probably close enough for government work.

[jonnyUCB]

cause you dont want to double a maniac up on a marginally EV push - which is still even debatable. Theres nothing I hate more than a maniac losing MY money to some other rock on the table.

The PF push is also debatable but I'm not sure how often these guys have played like this on your table. It seems like their maniacal plays have come post flop, no? Raising in the first position puts you on likely hands that would like to go all-in.. would they really test you by reraising with junk? are they that stupid?

Personally I'd wait for a better situation against these types of maniacs but I've played versus certain types where this would be an insta-push. Based on your description of their tendencies I would wait.

[xorbie]

The problem with waiting for a better situation is that someone else will likely take it.

The thing about this hand is that it's quite possible that one of them has an underpair, which creates huge amounts of dead money for hero, so that the rare times the re-raiser has AA/KK/QQ are offset by the times he has AT and hero is over 50% to win a three way pot.