So I've had a few beers, but I want to start a thread.

[citanul]

So I've been thinking about this problem lately, and before I start letting it slip out of my head, I wanted to get something "on paper" as it were. This is mostly inspired by the raptor hand with AJs, which drove me to think more and more about "proper" bubble play. For a brief lesson in proper bubble play for anyone who is lacking in high level bubble play, I quote donbuttons "just push every time it's folded to you." I've joked before about not being sure if he's serious about this, because well, it's not entirely far from what you should be doing, if you look at an equity tool, such as eastbay's. For another general synopsis: push, don't call.

So, here we are at my question, or whatever.

In proper bubble play, it is correct to push very often, but to call almost never, even if you know your opponent's hand, and you know you are ahead. I believe this to be most true at the highest levels, where know not to call who are not necessarilly 2+2ers, perhaps not out of reasoning directly tied to $ev as such, but out of quite justified fear of mutuallly assured destruction. ie, even if people haven't necessarilly looked at icm numbers for hours on end, it's possible for them to have come to the conclusion that just calling with the best hand ain't where it's at.

However, even very good opponents (or at least very name recognizable opponents) don't play this well. There are many "top" sng players who call in spots where they "shouldn't." (I don't particularly know why I put that in quotes, since it doesn't necessarilly make sense.) So the dynamic clearly has to change when you're playing against these players, those who call too much, even if they just call a bit too much, or perhaps it changes in different ways when they call too much, depending on what those ranges that they call extra with are.

My gut feeling is that if people call too much, you have to tighten up when you push at/through them. Clearly if they somehow manage to call too little for what is the proper amount (hah, like someone could do that) you push at them even more). But here's the real question: say everyone at the table loosens up their calling standards by some amount. I think that that dictates that you as well open up your calling standards. I could be full of [censored], I don't know. But I think that if they're going to start to call your pushes which are coming fast and furious often with any two cards with say, any ace and K9+, any pair, you have to also open up your calling standards (perhaps not as much as theirs).

I don't really know where the question comes in here really, but I thought this was interesting, that I think that you need to clearly open up your calling as well, so I thought I'd put it out there for discussion. I like this stuff, and I know there are others out there too. I didn't pay much attention to the recent strassa post called "playing the bubble perfectly" or whatever, and it's possible that it's a very similar post, but much better. (it probably is, knowing my luck.) So I apologize if it is so and this has been recently beaten to death.

Anyways, have at thee, what do you all think?

citanul

[Maulik]

This post is right on the money. You'r pretty much suggesting, play tight when people are loose and loose when they're tight. This is especially true during bubble play. Just analyze the number of pushes and if they are pushing entirely too much start calling with some of your weaker calling hands. Perhaps some that you may call when you're HU.

Bottom line: You don't call because you want to steal their blinds, that's better than having to let www.partypoker.com deal a coinflip out for the worst hand pre-flop.

[raptor517]

good post cit. i think you made quite a few very good points here. (possibly too many [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). hmm, i think, in certain situations, you do have to loosen up quite a bit with yer calling requirements. i really dont like to, but it could be necessary against some very agressive opponents that do in fact call a lot. you have to learn how to adjust to situations like this when you cant get FE out of your crap pushes. who knows, against super loose opponents you would have to call with that AJ hand, assuming they call every push every time you shove with anything. that would make any player's edge dissappear quick. holla

[citanul]

note that in case this thread gets interesting, i deceptively named it something stupid so that no one will know where to go looking for it.

citanul

[Blarg]

I agree that the bubble is especially not a place to do a lot of calling. That's just a way to bleed off chips when your real goal is to accumulate some quickly if you can, hopefully with a great hand of course, but probably primarily through stealing. You may only get one or two chances to steal, so you have to be very focused on it. You have to use your folding equity while you can still have some chips to intimidate players with; doing much calling is just taking the point off your spear right when you need to be poking people. Money lost calling is money you can't push people out of pots with.

[Madd]

If the other players have loose calling standards and push often, then let them bust each other and slide into the money without a fight. Their calling standards don't change that a call with AJ is -$EV.

[Voltron87]

I tried to add this to my favorites but instead alerted the mods about you. Ooops. Too early to read it though. I'll play Duke Nukem for 30 minutes and read it during my 11 o'clock class.

[EdgePort]

This is something that I have really realized over the past few days and I think has/will improve my ITM. Too manys times I was calling an all-in when I had a good hand AJ, type of thing, when I should just let it go. I would know I actually had the best hand, but it is just not worth giving up half my stack on the bubble when I can use it in better ways.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
However, even very good opponents (or at least very name recognizable opponents) don't play this well. There are many "top" sng players who call in spots where they "shouldn't." (I don't particularly know why I put that in quotes, since it doesn't necessarilly make sense.) So the dynamic clearly has to change when you're playing against these players, those who call too much, even if they just call a bit too much, or perhaps it changes in different ways when they call too much, depending on what those ranges that they call extra with are.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that these top players don't make these bad calls as often as you think. They are counting on the fact that you aren't going to forget the one time he spite called with with J9. You'll never know about the 10 times he folded AT.



The best image for a player to have on the bubble:
- Will call a steal with any reasonable hand.
- Only steals with good hands.

The ideal strategy on the bubble:
- Don't call without a great hand.
- Steal with any 2 cards.

As in any form of poker, you want your table image to be the opposite of how you actually want to play.

How do you achieve this? If you play in 200s where everyone knows you, you can throw in some crazy calls against a tough opponent who you face often and won't forget.

If you know your opponent is stealing with any 2, then calling with J9o is -$EV, but it isn't horrible. It's probably a coin flip vs a random hand, so maybe you give up 2% according to ICM, so $20 in a 200/15 sng. It may be worth $20 to get tagged as a lunatic.

You probably heard second-hand about these crazy plays from name players in games you weren't even in. That's effective advertising.

If you are Gus Hansen, you can call an allin with T8o on a televised event. He did that in an event with a $25k first prize. I think he had like 30% of the chips in play at the time, so his $EV if he folded was $7500. If he called, it was maybe $5000. That's a huge percentage drop in $EV, but it really only cost him $2500.

Since Gus plays in 4000/8000 mixed games, I doubt he'll miss the $2500. It was worth it to him to cement his image as a lunatic that will call you with T8 for a ton of chips. (If you missed the episode, a stunned Antonio flipped over 77 and Gus flopped an 8).

In the lower limits, it's pointless to make -$EV calls because no one is going to remember, and you don't face the same players every day. However, I think it is worth it to make borderline +$EV calls for the same reasons.

I think Scuba had a case where he had 2100 and needed to call a 330 allin with T9 on a J8x flop. It was close, but it was +$EV to call. There were arguments made for passing here, but none of them were convincing to me.

You have a chance to call with Ten-high, it's +$EV, and it won't cost you that much.....I am all over it.

To my opponents, this call might look just as crazy as the Gus Hansen call. In fact, I've improved my table image AND made a small increase in $EV.

If you say, "I'll just fold, and then steal the next 2 hands." That's fine, but now you are killing your table image. Your opponents see you fold for only 330 more (though they don't know you cards). They will then see you stealing more than your share.

Eventually, your strategy becomes transparent. This is bad because a "don't call, steal with any 2" strategy is exploitable. If your opponents call a lot, you can just wait from them kill each other, but if they only call a lot when YOU bet....that's really, really bad.

[1C5]

2 questions for you and anyone else.

First. How does this change when you are on the bubble and you have 3-4X BB or less. Say someone is aggressive and pushing lots to steal the blinds. Blinds are 150/300 and you have 800 chips.
As I said, this big stack is aggressive and bullying the table (as he should).
He is probably pushing with almost any 2.

At what point do you have to make a stand? What pocket pair do you call with? AQ? AK? AJ?
This is something I am not sure about just yet?


Also keep in mind what level you play. People in the $11s will call with any A and any 2 face cards all the time. They don't know what the gap concept is.