keeping the small / leaving money on the table

schwza · #1 04-14-2005, 10:42 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($47.5)
Hero ($120.05)
Button ($46.25)
SB ($41.35)
BB ($45)
UTG ($107.9)
UTG+1 ($77.95)
UTG+2 ($77.2)
MP1 ($91.55)
MP2 ($24)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP1 raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7, 3 folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls $4.75.

Flop: ($15.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($15.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets $8, Hero calls $8.

River: ($31.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets $9, Hero raises to $27, MP1 calls $18.

Final Pot: $85.25

no reads on villain, except that he's 6/20 in about 45 PT hands. this seems like a very safe flop for me. is this the time to throw "keep the pot small" out the window and try to get to the felt against a smaller pair? we're about 180x deep.

FlipPoker · #2 04-14-2005, 11:51 AM

I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

Rosencrantz1 · #3 04-14-2005, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Did he flip 9's full?

Alex/Mugaaz · #4 04-14-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to the poster's stats on the villain there is no straight possible except for the Hero.

The only question is if the villain has a flush draw.
It's not very likey but he could have 2 hearts. Giving him 9 outs twice to beat you. If he only has 1 heart then he most likely has a pocket pair and is drawing to 3.5 outs. Or possibly AK-AJ where he has even less outs.

The o problem with slowplaying here is that it's impossible. Why? Becuase by definition for it to be a slowplay the villain has to be able to improve to the 2nd best hand, this isn't possible becuase any improvement gives him the best one.

The only thing checking behind him accomplishes is inducing a bluff, or making him think his JJ-KK is good and inducing him to bet for value against you. Either way win.

I think checking the flop was the best option. It induces a worse hand to bet against you getting you more money. The only hand that has more than 3 +/-1 outs against you is suited hearts. The money you lose when he hits those hands is easily made up by any aggressive action the villain takes. If he has 2 hearts you have to bet the pot to give him incorrect odds to call.

The only weakness in checking is that if a heart falls he can make a strong semi bluff if he holds 1 heart, and now you're behind becuase you don't have a good read on him. Unfortunately this is a big weakness since you have no real information to make a move, but I think you have to call here regardless. Even if he hits the flush you have 4 outs for a full house.

schwza · #5 04-14-2005, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Did he flip 9's full?

[/ QUOTE ]

i posted the full HH. do you think villain calls the river raise if he has a 9?

villain has QQ and i kick myself for not trying to build a bigger pot. what was i afraid of on that flop, exactly?

Alex/Mugaaz · #6 04-14-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Did he flip 9's full?

[/ QUOTE ]

i posted the full HH. do you think villain calls the river raise if he has a 9?

villain has QQ and i kick myself for not trying to build a bigger pot. what was i afraid of on that flop, exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ack! Don't kick yourself. There were 2 hands to be mildly scared of on the flop AKh AQh.

Your check made him bet against you and allowed you to rope a dope him twice. The only possible improvement was raising more on the river. How much more you could of gotten away with may be impossible to calculate. You didn't play this wrong. Even if your reasons weren't correct.

fimbulwinter · #7 04-14-2005, 02:24 PM

If this was a pot played with you raising and getting many callers, then i think keeping things small is paramount.

since you are headup and re-raised an MP raiser, you are ahead on this flop always. you need to pot it and call a push from a strong sooted ace.

Honestly though, you're not going to stack off here unless you play it superagressive to convince him you're on AK unimproved. depending on your read this may or may not be the best way to play it, but it will certainly have higher variance. the way i play it is straightforward. I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.

fim

schwza · #8 04-14-2005, 02:32 PM

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the way i play it is straightforward

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bet every street? (assuming no heart falls)

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I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

so just concede you're stacking off against the unlikely A4 / 33 / 44? that seemed like the right way to play it but about 1000 times a day i read that you're not supposed to go broke with an unimproved overpair.

my plan was actually to call the river until the 9 hit b/c i figured that if i raised the river i might get reraised by JJ-KK. then i would be in a bad spot of folding the best hand or paying off 33/44/a4. when the 2nd 9 hit, i figured i would not get reraised by JJ-KK, so it was now safe to raise and fold to a reraise.

i wanna go back to 50x stacks where i can blindly get all-in with AA [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

PoBoy321 · #9 04-14-2005, 02:35 PM

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Ack! Don't kick yourself. There were 2 hands to be mildly scared of on the flop AKh AQh.

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Of course he should be kicking himself. He gave free cards to a draw with what HAD to be the best hand at the time. Why would you ever do that?

fimbulwinter · #10 04-14-2005, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the way i play it is straightforward

[/ QUOTE ]

bet every street? (assuming no heart falls)

[ QUOTE ]
I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

so just concede you're stacking off against the unlikely A4 / 33 / 44? that seemed like the right way to play it but about 1000 times a day i read that you're not supposed to go broke with an unimproved overpair.

my plan was actually to call the river until the 9 hit b/c i figured that if i raised the river i might get reraised by JJ-KK. then i would be in a bad spot of folding the best hand or paying off 33/44/a4. when the 2nd 9 hit, i figured i would not get reraised by JJ-KK, so it was now safe to raise and fold to a reraise.

i wanna go back to 50x stacks where i can blindly get all-in with AA [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, there's almost no chance of A3 or 44. 33 is very very unlikely but possible i guess. given the preflop action (limper, then a raise) i think you'll see those hands like <1% of the time. if it was an open raise, things kind of change, but only total loons raise after limpers with those hands.

as for straightforward, like pot flop, 2/3pot turn, 1/2 pot river. just enough so that he has to call every street.

fim