AKs and Pushing on flops

[PokerSponge]

this is 10 sng on poker stars. fairly normal table. I have not played a lot of hands and had raised one hand UTG just 2bb with AJs several hands previously.

I was in MP with AKs and raised 4BB to 200 after two limpers UTG and UTG+1 and the BB called

the flop was 10c Ks 6h

it was checked to me and I pushed 1200 all in BB called


My question is in this situation where someone called pre flop a big raise and then checks on a flop like this should you ever push all in or is it better to just bet like half the pot?

villian had KTo by the way, which is of course an incredibly lame call to make on his part from the BB.


My question is in this situation where someone called pre flop a big raise and then checks on a flop like this should you ever push all in or is it better to just bet like half the pot?

I am trying to eliminate areas where I am leaking too much. It seems I have been pushing in these situations and losing damn near every time. lol.

[Pokerscott]

You have to think about what the chances are the opponent will:

1-Call when you have them beat (good)
2-Fold when they have you beat (good)
3-Fold when you have them beat (bad)
4-Call when they have you beat (bad)

Increasing the bet size may change the probability of each of these. The problem I see with your bet is that a bet half the size accomplishes the same thing. What do you think happens if you increase your bet size from 1.5x pot to all in?

1-Call when you have them beat (good)
-less likely. Someone loose might call thinking to push you off it later, but in general bigger bets will make 2nd best hands fold more.

2-Fold when they have you beat (good)
-no change. No way for you to push someone off a better hand. AA, 2-pair or a set is about it, and as you found out no bet is big enough to push them off it. This was 0% for either sized bet.

3-Fold when you have them beat (bad)
-more likely. flip side of #1

4-Call when they have you beat (bad)
-no change. This is 100% for either sized bet.

So what did your increased bet size accomplish? You lose more chips to a better hand AND you cause 2nd best hands to fold more often.

Bad play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pokerscott

[nova]

Agree with scott: in some situations the size of the bet won't affect what they will do, and you'll learn the same information. I'm not sure what level this was at, but you figure that if you lead out with a bet between 1/3 and 2/3 the pot and get called, you'll have to think about it. Obviously if he plays back at you, you may be up against something.

I like the raise preflop, he probably was thinking "well I have two big cards and can get a straight and I already have 50 in, so...." I've seen strange calls like this. This is one of the cats that may only fold a hand like that to 6xbb raise. Were people routinely folding to 4xbb raises out of position? I've seen some tables where 3x or even 2xbb would chase someone out, depending on position.

lead out with half the pot and see where you stand, and don't jeopardize your stack with someone who could have hit it big on the flop, my thoughts.

[PokerSponge]

great comments. I think you are right. It is funny somehow I have gone from being very tight conservative to being tight but very aggressive with my hands and pushing all in more with AKs and JJ and whatnot on flops.

I think Harrington was right when he said the All In bet is an amateur move. You risk far too much when you don't have to. There is a time and a place and this just wasn't it. I had chips and there was no need.

I figured that this guy might have had a lower pair or Ax. I figured if he had AA or KK he would have reraised. I suppose he could have had TT as well and made his call. I should have slowed down. Thanks for the input.

[NegativeEV]

I can't tell how many opponents hero has on the flop from his post. I think its alot though. Isn't the pot so big that any reasonable bet will pot commit hero? Maybe there are fewer players seeing the flop than I think........

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I was in MP with AKs and raised 4BB to 200 after two limpers UTG and UTG+1 and the BB called


[/ QUOTE ]

Looks to me like there are 4 in post flop.

Pokerscott

[yoadrians]

I think one of the biggest problems a lot of people have with AKo or AKs is overplaying after the flop.

For instance, let's say blinds are 50/100, and I have AKs in MP or something. Three limpers, and I raise to 200, and I get two callers. Flop comes like the one you described. Guess what? You don't have a hand. When you push, you have to remember that anyone who called your initial bet may, in fact, be WAY ahead of you. Their small pocket pair beats you. Their set beats you. Their TPTK beats you. And it's really tough, especially at this buy-in, to get any of these three ranges of hands to lay it down.

I think a 1/3 pot size bet will tell you where you're at. And when you're beat, just let it go.

FWIW, your push just wreaks of AK. If I had any piece of that board - maybe even a pocket pair - I'd consider calling just because you're not pushing with a made hand here.

AKs is a great starting hand. But when 4 people see a flop, and you don't hit, it's just another losing hand a lot of the time. And that takes a while to get used to.

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW, your push just wreaks of AK. If I had any piece of that board - maybe even a pocket pair - I'd consider calling just because you're not pushing with a made hand here.

AKs is a great starting hand. But when 4 people see a flop, and you don't hit, it's just another losing hand a lot of the time. And that takes a while to get used to.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm. A king hit the flop. He has TPTK...

Pokerscott

[PokerSponge]

I corrected the post. THREE PEOPLE saw the flop sorry for the confusion. I thought it was 4 but only 3.

[Donating]

If you are looking to raise preflop here - which is an acceptable option - you need to raise more. 275 would be a pot sized raise and probably a better number. This should have the effect of limiting the field as this is a hand that you would prefer not to play for a raise against a large field. 4x the BB is a fairly standard opening raise, but not when there are already two limpers in the pot.

Your push on the flop is totally fine. You hit your best card. What are you planning on doing - betting half the pot and then folding to a raise. Given the size of the pot and your chip stack, you are pretty much pot committed. The only reason to bet less would be to milk a lesser hand or encourage a bluff raise. By pushing, they may think you are semi-bluffing (e.g., AQ, JJ) and you may get called by a weaker king. I like the play.