Big pot - overcall or fold here?

RobMay · #1 03-31-2005, 06:53 PM

This hand makes me look like a calling station who makes the worst poker mistake ever on the river!

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.
(I would have raised, but UTG+1 got there first, so I called and hoped for a few more loose calls behind me)

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.
(Again, I'd normally bet or raise this pair/backdoor flush, but with 2 out of 3 opponents already in I didn't see any point in trying to isolate the last guy - I acknowledge this mistake!)

Turn: (8.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.
(No equity in raising my draw against 2 opponents, so another boring call ...)

River: (11.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds.
(I KNOW you're not supposed to fold for one bet in a large pot unless you're ABSOLUTELY SURE you're beat ... but against a bet by the flop raiser as well as a call by the other guy (who can't be bluffing, right?) I really thought I had no chance.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 3c 6c (two pair, sixes and fours).
UTG+1 has Ah Kd (one pair, fours).
Outcome: BB wins 13.75 BB. 

I felt like the initiative had already been taken away from me before my first decision, so by calling as cheaply as I could I only spent 3BB on this hand ... or did I miss out on a 13.75BB pot by playing weak?

Greg J · #2 03-31-2005, 07:00 PM

Preflop: I let this go. Cold calling preflop is generally not a great idea, but with only one other person beside the raiser in the pot so far, this makes for a pretty easy laydown IMO. If you had 3 cold callers in front then it might be worth considering.

You have to raise this flop. You relative position is not perfect, but the pot is big enough to where you want to maximize your chances of winning the hand. This changes the dynamic of this hand almost as much as the preflop fold. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT: Call the river and expect to win barely enough for it to be profitable.

Firefly · #3 03-31-2005, 07:02 PM

This should be a fold pf...I'm working on not calling those raises too..but you can toss KJs here. I'd raise the flop, calling the turn is fine, and if i somehow ended up at the river, i'd probally call there too

tiltaholic · #4 03-31-2005, 07:05 PM

what greg j said.

routine fold preflop.
i'd raise the flop too.
the turn is perfect.
[ QUOTE ]
so another boring call ...)

[/ QUOTE ]
calls are not bad, or boring. in that instance, its the correct play.

the river fold is ok facing the overcaller.

UncleSalty · #5 03-31-2005, 07:06 PM

This is pretty shabby my friend.

1. Fold this PF. You are dominated by an EP raiser too often to make this a profitable call. If you absolutely want to play the hand, make it 3-bets and see if you can buy yourself the button.

2. UTG+1's smooth call of the flop bet indicates some weakness to me. I would raise here to guage UTG's reaction. You have top pair and are only afraid of a few hands. (AA,KK,AK). UTG+1 could be slowplaying one of these, but it's not likely.

3. You could very likely have the best hand right now. You should bet for value here based on top pair alone. The flush draw is just gravy.

4. [shaking head in disbelief]UGLY[/shaking head in disbelief]

Dude. Do yourself a favor and stick around.

-Salty

RobMay · #6 03-31-2005, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty shabby my friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree! The only reason I posted it was because I wasn't sure on which street I made the worst mistake. Ironically, the thing you all agree on (folding pre-flop) is the one thing I thought was good.

But yeah, I just checked SSHE and it says only call a raise if there are others in the pot. I'll remember that disclaimer next time!

Thanks for the replies!

Greg J · #7 03-31-2005, 07:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But yeah, I just checked SSHE and it says only call a raise if there are others in the pot. I'll remember that disclaimer next time!

[/ QUOTE ]
As you become more experienced this stuff will just *click* intuitively. [shamelessness] Scroll down and read the post I made on preflop play earlier[/shamelessness].

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I posted it was because I wasn't sure on which street I made the worst mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
We tend to post our screw ups. Don't sweat it. Poker is like most other things in life -- you learn by screwing up.

aK13 · #8 03-31-2005, 07:39 PM

I'm just wondering if anybody could explain the reason for the raise on the flop (given the current situation).

Also, what about if the flop was 6 A J, 1 of your suit?
What if you have AJs and flop is 6 K J, 1 of your suit?

And if you get 3bet after the raise, call a raise, fold a cap, and check/fold the turn UI?

tiltaholic · #9 03-31-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. UTG+1's smooth call of the flop bet indicates some weakness to me. I would raise here to guage UTG's reaction. You have top pair and are only afraid of a few hands. (AA,KK,AK). UTG+1 could be slowplaying one of these, but it's not likely.

3. You could very likely have the best hand right now. You should bet for value here based on top pair alone. The flush draw is just gravy.

[/ QUOTE ]

um. middle pair dude.

tiltaholic · #10 03-31-2005, 07:58 PM

i gotta run so these are some quick thoughts:

pf raiser could be autobetting.
we have lotsa outs (to 2pair, trips, backdoor flush, backdoor straight) and the pot is big
getting bb to fold would be nice.
but getting a free river would be sweet.

mabye someone else will come in with more eloquence.