Folding KK

Drewboy22 · #1 03-17-2005, 09:36 AM

6-handed SNG Pokerstars ($35 +3) 5 left.

Blinds are 50-100.
Chip Counts:

SB 2200
BB (me) 1700
UTG 1500
CO 1700
Button 2400

I'm dealt KK.

UTG limps
CO limps
Button raises All-in.
SB quickly calls.

My reads on both Button and SB so far is that they are pretty tight. I am sure one of them has AA so I fold. I kept thinking about Sklansky's chapter on folding KK early in a tournament. I also felt that I was one of the better players at the table and did not want to get busted out on a coin flip.
Any comments would be appreciated.

I'll post results later.

TylerD · #2 03-17-2005, 09:52 AM

Firstly Sklansky did not play $33 SnG's online - he was talking about large buy-in, multi-table, live tournaments where there is plenty of play and plenty of time to build a stack.

Secondly, do you really think the button would play Aces like this? Sure, he could be a nut but typical players want to get value from their big hands and will slowplay them - min raising or raising enough to "keep people in". As for the SB, he could a very wide variety of hands AK - AJ, a pocket pair, or might figure the button was on a steal (very possible given the limpers) and might call with many more marginal hands.

Thirdly, you can never be facing a coinflip with KK, you're either severely dominated (by AA) or are a huge favourite.

If you never fold KK preflop in an SnG you will (virtually) never be making a mistake.

Mr_J · #3 03-17-2005, 10:18 AM

Yeh I don't see how you can fold.

"did not want to get busted out on a coin flip."

Most of the time you'll be at worst 50% to win the hand and triple up. Up against 2 or 3 outers. Even if you were only 50% , you're passing up a 100% advantage...

therock · #4 03-17-2005, 10:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm dealt KK.

UTG limps
CO limps
Button raises All-in.
SB quickly calls.

My reads on both Button and SB so far is that they are pretty tight. I am sure one of them has AA so I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have been reading too many of Scuba Chuck's post. These tournaments are too short to be putting people on AA and folding.

stigmata · #5 03-17-2005, 10:23 AM

I had exactly the same situation yesterday, and I got busted by AA [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

However, I call 100% of the time, unless I think my fold will get me ITM. Not sure if that is correct, but there are so many donks at these games (tight or not) that I fancy my chances to double or treble.

Drewboy22 · #6 03-17-2005, 10:40 AM

Thanks for your replies.

You have confirmed my fears that I screwed up. I think I have my head in too many books right now and it is now clear to me that I misinterpreted the information. Here are the results:

Button had AKo
SB had QJs

board was all uncoordinated rags.

My KK would have held up. Doh!

Thanks again for your comments...I learn more every day on this site.

and who the eff is Scuba Chuck?

Drewboy22

john_ · #7 03-17-2005, 10:58 AM

I had typed out the quick call doesn't always mean strength. QJ suited calling that all in is really loose(if they were really tight maybe they "misfired" thus the quick call)...Although lots of players at lower limit buy in STTs will put into the pot with weak hands on their blinds. Lets say they all had real hands you still have to put your money in. Here's the situations:

Situation 1:
One of them has Ax(AK,AQ,etc.) the other has a lower pocket pair(QQ,JJ,etc.). Here you have 56% equity at tripling up.

Situation 2:
They both have lower pocket pairs(JJ,QQ). Less likely but you're 2 to 1 favorite at doubling up.

Situation 3:
One of them has aces and you're a big dog.

Situation 4:
One of them has KK the other has Ax. Low variance "coinflip"... 2/3rds of the time you split the other guys money.

Situation 5:
Same as above but replace Ax with a smaller pocket pair. Your equity goes up somewhat now you're about 80% to split.

Maybe if the buy-in was higher, there were more players & blinds were lower you could debate putting this down.

Voltron87 · #8 03-17-2005, 11:05 AM

Folding KK preflop 6 handed? Never do it.

BradleyT · #9 03-17-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I had exactly the same situation yesterday, and I got busted by AA [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You forget about the other 150 times you were up against QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, AK, AQ, AJ....

mosch · #10 03-17-2005, 11:25 AM

I fold there approximately zero percent of the time.

In Harrington on Hold'em he has a sample hand where he read his opponent for aces... got all-in with kings, and his opponent had aces.

He said something along the lines of 'sometimes they'll have aces, and you'll feel stupid.' Most of the time they won't.