Pocket aces early in MTT, did I play it horrible?

scottjf8 · #1 03-16-2005, 11:25 AM

This was pretty early in the $20 + $2 NL tourney on Stars last night... I'm trying to really focus in these games, and feel I did the best I could with this hand.. but the flop was just terrible and I felt I was really behind... My turn bet was just stupid, I know..

Bad play or just move on? (Moving on turned out later to give me KK v. AA..)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

UTG (t3390)
UTG+1 (t1260)
MP1 (t1340)
MP2 (t2750)
MP3 (t2255)
CO (t2105)
Button (t1610)
Hero (t1250)
BB (t1495)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, 3 folds, MP3 calls t30, 2 folds, Hero raises to t240, 1 fold, UTG calls t210, MP3 folds.

Flop: (t540) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t150, UTG calls t150.

Turn: (t840) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t90, UTG raises to t1080, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2010

youngin20 · #2 03-16-2005, 11:35 AM

Your preflops raise is toooooo big. its something like 8x bb...maybe five or six times bb would be better, remember you are pretty much raising for value. The flop is dangerous, but if you want to protect, you need to bet bigger....or check. I think checking is an option...this board is UBER drawheavy....and why even bother betting the turn. I probably check the flop (if you are going to bet it, you need to bet at least half the pot, betting one fifty is a weak lead. So all in all, i dont like your play on any streets....but hey, what do I know?

yecul · #3 03-16-2005, 11:51 AM

I don't like your play on any of those betting rounds. Too large pf, too small on flop, turn bet was pointless.

Soul Daddy · #4 03-16-2005, 12:03 PM

I don't understand your bet sizes at all. What are you trying to accomplish with each?

The pf bet is way too high. You want action on this hand. With 2 limpers, a raise to t120-150 would be more appropriate. Your raise is driving out all but premium hands.

The flop bet does nothing but leak chips. He's not calling the pfr w/ air here, he's got a big pp or AK-AQ in most cases. Betting substantially less than your pfr is just weak. It's going to take a bet of at least half the pot to get him to consider laying down.

Who pushes the flop?

schifty · #5 03-16-2005, 12:05 PM

alright, we'll work on it.
1) your preflop raise is too much. What are scared of? two limpers + bb, maybe make it like 150 or even 180 cause you're out of position.
2) what is your goal with the flop bet? the biggest problem with most casual players is they don't have a plan. Maybe you have a plan in this scenario, but just praying he folds is not an option. Your flop and turn play would probably lead me to instapush a lot of hands, but even when you have a stronger holding with that board, these bets are no good. You're hope here is that villain has ak or kq, in which case you're still in trouble. Honestly, the only hands I see him folding are small pairs. This doesn't happen often, but I like a check in this partcular situation.
3) Your turn bet has no value. He's not mucking any hands that are ahead of you and you show a plenty of weakness. He now has a greenlight to bluff you off of a lot of hands. If you do make your flop bet and he flat calls, he's probably ahead- range of holdings: ak/kq/aq/tt/jj/qq. Again, what is your plan with the turn bet? It's not big enough (not even close) to block. Also, it makes no sense to represent a hand like kk here. If he flopped a set and you did have kk, you would still get all the money in. If he flopped a str8, you would still get it in. I think I'm putting you on aa here if I'm playing you, at which point I know you can't call an allin. (which probably doesn't have to factor in because I'm ahead with almost any holding at this point)
My biggest piece of advice is to form a plan. Even if your reasons for doing something are incorrect, at least it will get you thinking about your hands more.
What do you think he has? What do you think he puts you on? What will your bets accomplish? How will your bets define the hand? These are the questions that should be going through your mind when you're playing.
best of luck.

schifty · #6 03-16-2005, 12:21 PM

pushing the flop is a consideration, but only cause of the preflop overbet.
I think it accomplishes very little. Villain would probably lay down holdings that you're ahead of here and his calls have you dominated. Sets have you drawing to 6 outs...made str8 has you drawing to 3 and a runner-runner boat...qq prolly folds but is only 65-35 dog if he comes along...
A lot of your problems are solved preflop. My plan after the flop is to check and play from there. His best play is a push, but I'm not sure of the competition you're playing against. I would push almost any holding in his position. If you don't buy his bet after you check, you can shove it in there, just know that in most cases you're behind a resonable player (and even not so reasonable).
Basically, you're in a sticky spot postflop. My mindset is just to get away from it which may seem weak/passive. However, the range of hands I'm up against is not looking promising and you just don't really have enough chpis to make a respectable bet at the flop and then get away. If you do bet the flop, be prepared to get your whole stack in.

Soul Daddy · #7 03-16-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
pushing the flop is a consideration, but only cause of the preflop overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah.

You're likely only getting called by hands that beat you or AK. Maybe QQ. But I can't check the flop, and any substantial continuation bet pretty much ties you to the pot anyway.

PokerGoblin · #8 03-16-2005, 12:40 PM

OK man

The PFR is way too big. You were lucky to get any action w/ a bet like that. Had there been of couple limpers and then maybe a raise, then you can justify making a bigger bet. But with only two limpers it's more probably they will both fold to a bet that size.

On the flop you are out of position on a bad but not completely worthless board. You have a gutshot straight draw and a backdoor flushdraw to the nuts along with your overpair. What do you know about your opponent? What type of hand is he likely to have limped with, then called a huge overbet with? It's unlikely he has a big pair, or else he'd have raised with it preflop. he could have KQ or QJ, which gives him a big draw on the flop.

The flop bet was terrible, bet more or move all in... or don't bet at all, but by doing that you are essentially giving up on the hand.

Why did you bet out on the turn? You bet about 10% of the pot. What purpose does that serve?

You are most likely behind after the turn and you need to consider dumping your aces.

As far as running into AA w/ KK, that happens. There's only one hand KK isn't a favorite over.

PG

schifty · #9 03-16-2005, 12:48 PM

on checking the flop:
consider what you have to gain with a push? What hands is he calling with? What value are you getting? I think check/calling allin gives your hand much more value than pushing the flop. Pushing the flop basically gets out all of the hands that you're ahead of. Not to mention, If utg is fishy, he might check his set behind and give you the off chance of filling in the str8 or catching.
If your goal with pushing the flop is to get value from kq/ak, you need to find better places to push agains villains suspected range of hands.

daveymck · #10 03-16-2005, 12:50 PM

Hand is easier to play if you raise less pre flop, looks to me him calling you and the scary board make you scared, he could have taken the pot away from you with any two cards.

As others have said raise less maybe to 120 or so the pot is then lower so you can fire out a 2/3 continuation bet and proceed from there. The way you played it we cannot narrow down his holding at all.

I think the consideration is also on how the opponant has played, he looks like he has doubled through is he a loose player who has been active or won with a big hand and has been playing tight.

As for pushing the flop I dont see what hand he calls all in that you can beat except for AK and QQ or non broadway flush draw (some players could have called your raise with suited connectors or smaller pocket pairs.) Any other hand you are behind to a set, two pair or a flopped straight.