Going to far with KQo?

Beck · #1 03-15-2005, 04:48 PM

UTG+1 had doubled chasing and hitting a gutshot str8.
So couldn't see what he had raised with UTG+1, that I didn't beat, save for AA/KK

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter

MP1 (t885)
MP2 (t785)
CO (t1675)
Button (t745)
SB (t770)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t680)
UTG+1 (t1660)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 raises to t30, 4 folds, SB calls t20, Hero calls t15, UTG calls t15.

Flop: (t117.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t150, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t150, SB folds.

Turn: (t417.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets 325, UTG+1 raise to 650, hero is all-in

River: (t417.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t417.50

nyc999 · #2 03-15-2005, 04:54 PM

I fold PF.

Namebejed7 · #3 03-15-2005, 04:55 PM

Although you may have the best hand on the flop, I can only think of one hand that he would call your bet with that you still beat on the turn, which is KJ. If he was drawing with QJ he got there, if he was drawing to hearts he got there, and even loose players don't typically raise with worse than K9. I think he either flopped two pair, turned two pair/flush/straight, or had you beat the whole way.

shoeman · #4 03-15-2005, 04:59 PM

I probably fold this pre-flop in level 1.

If I played this hand, I would also take a stab at this pot on the flop. Unfortuneately, you are called and the turn card shows one of the worst possible cards for you. I think you have to check here and fold to a strong bet.

microbet · #5 03-15-2005, 05:06 PM

I think 100 would be enough to bet on the flop and I would check/fold the turn unless they bet very small.

Scuba Chuck · #6 03-15-2005, 05:09 PM

It's very frustrating to play KQ from out of position. That's why it's recommended to fold this preflop.

Scuba Chuck · #7 03-15-2005, 05:10 PM

Beware of the smooth call...

Scuba Chuck · #8 03-15-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Although you may have the best hand on the flop, I can only think of one hand that he would call your bet with that you still beat on the turn,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Phil Van Sexton told me to slightly overbet the pot on the flop, if it's likely that could be your only bet. Feel free to underbet the flop if you plan on putting in more chips.

IMO, your smoother caller has one of 5 hands:
1. Flush draw
2. 2 pair
3. Set
4. Top Pair - some other kicker
5. Idiot's hand

I would think that a flop bet of 150 (pot was 120 right?, I like this bet), more than the pot, should help eliminate #5. So, the probabilities are not so great that you have your opponent beat here 1 out of 4. I think this is check-fold mode time. Some chips is better than none chips. Your position sucks here.

Namebejed7 · #9 03-15-2005, 05:47 PM

That was pretty much my point. If there's any hope he's ahead on the flop, there is virtually no chance on the turn due to the fact that any draws would have got there.

Elektrik · #10 03-15-2005, 05:53 PM

The preflop call is boarderline, but fine if you can play well postflop. Playing well post flop generally means "not giving excessive action when you are behind." (thanks strassa)

Unfortunately, you did just that. Your post flop play needs quite a bit of work before you can make these calls profitable. You might ocassionally catch him here with some Kx trash, but honestly you're putting in all of your chips when most of the time you will be behind.

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 had doubled chasing and hitting a gutshot str8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain is bad. But what type of bad? Is he loose passive, and will call down bets with marginal hands like a gutshot? Is he a loose aggressive, who'll push that gutshot to the felt? These are factors to be considered in this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t117.50) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t150, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t150, SB folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop, we're out of position with a marginal hand and a ton of draws that our opponents could reasonably have. If you bet this flop, there's a lot of hands that can call you, and you'll have no idea where you're at. My line at this point would be check, bet a blank on the turn.

The size of your bet also concerns me. 150 into a 117 pot? Again, now you're building a huge pot out of position with a marginal hand. If they call you, you're pretty much up the creek without a paddle. If you're going to bet, make it something like 80 or 90, at least keep the pot sized managable, even though I think the bet is -EV.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (t417.50) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets 325, UTG+1 raise to 650, hero is all-in

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn card is one of the worst in the deck for you. Every reasonable draw that your OP could have had just came in, save the gutshot. Given his smooth call of your massive flop overbet, he probably either already had you beat, or he does now. Sure, a small percentage of the time you'll have him, but that's rare. It's time to check/fold this hand. Given that you did bet the turn, I think you have to call the all in, but I'm not so sure about that - I'd never put myself in that situation in the first place.

You should never have lost more than 80-90 chips on this hand. Instead, you risked your whole stack. You should fold preflop next time.