Post Flop Play for dummies - HELP

[Scuba Chuck]

I get this "learning to play postflop" might get expensive for me. At least it's fun to learn something new...

How should I have bet this different? And, did you see this hand coming? (Damn Hand Converter takes me to a different site now)

***** Hand History for Game 1712277124 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10251724) - Wed Mar 09 22:31:17 EST 2005
Table Table 11039 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: BarnGoddess (1480)
Seat 2: mikeyrats (730)
Seat 4: Scuba_Chuk (560)
Seat 5: jkim01 (1750)
Seat 7: SixDegree6 (690)
Seat 8: shuntley (390)
Seat 9: DblRndOfCrwn (1475)
Seat 10: CakeLove (925)
mikeyrats posts small blind (15)
Scuba_Chuk posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuk [ J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
jkim01 calls (30)
SixDegree6 folds.
shuntley folds.
DblRndOfCrwn calls (30)
CakeLove folds.
BarnGoddess folds.
mikeyrats folds.
Scuba_Chuk checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
<font color="blue"> Pot is only 105 here. Okay, I'm out of position. I have TPWK, with a bunch of limpers. What am I to be thinking about right here? I thought that if I check, I will be giving a free card if it checks through. But, I'm really not all that interested in tangling with a KJ. What SHOULD my bet have been? Or rather, what is the better move? </font>

Scuba_Chuk bets (30)
jkim01 calls (30)
DblRndOfCrwn calls (30)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
<font color="blue"> Pot t195. More blasting please. (Oh, and Thank you, may I have another.) </font>

Scuba_Chuk bets (60)
jkim01 calls (60)

<font color="blue"> What are your thoughts on jkim01 right now? A call to me, means one of three things:
1) He also has a jack
2) He is slow playing a set
3) He's an idiot
</font>
DblRndOfCrwn folds.

** Dealing River ** : [ 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
<font color="blue"> I am completely up the creek without a paddle right now. I am so lost. I still have top pair???? This good pusher and folder, is thinking I've lost this hand. "Will I check fold, or check call? Well if it's not too painful, I'll call and post on 2+2." </font>
Scuba_Chuk checks.
jkim01 bets (100)
Scuba_Chuk calls (100)
** Summary **
Main Pot: 515
Board: [ 2s Jc 7d 3s 7s ]

Results:
<font color="white"> Scuba_Chuk balance 340, lost 220 [ Jh 9s ] [ two pairs, jacks and sevens -- Jh,Jc,9s,7d,7s ]
jkim01 balance 2045, bet 220, collected 515, net +295 [ 8s As ] [ a flush, ace high -- As,8s,7s,3s,2s ]

This is what I hate about the results (besides the fact that I really didn't think this is what the guy had.) That going into the river, I'm ahead. But I couldn't tell.
</font>

......

[Mammux]

Your flop bet is too small, 60 should be good. With no draws, you'll have to respect any caller. Notice that jkim played this semi-decently. You didn't represent a jack on the flop, so he had two overcards and a runner-runner flush draw. Your flop bet gave him better than 1:4 odds and probably good implied odds. Your turn bet is 1:4 again and his flush draw is looking very good, with great implied odds because it's well disguised.

-Magnus

[gumpzilla]

How do you bet when you have a hand that you're confident about, assuming that you somehow actually get to a flop? Is this minbetting something you don't usually do, I assume? Minbetting the flop is not a move I'm particularly fond of here. It's cheap enough for your opponents to call with a wide range of hands, so you don't get to figure out where you are. Plus, many opponents (I tend to fall into this category) frequently read such weak flop bets (unless there are reads to indicate otherwise) as a very low confidence attempt to pick up the pot. Such people can pop you back with essentially no hand here because it looks so likely that you're itching to fold.

I like a somewhat larger flop bet, maybe 70-75 or so. If you pick up a caller, check the turn and see what happens from there. Many times you're going to get a free river following that. Check-calling the river then seems reasonable; try to induce bets from hands that you're beating, because anything worse than your hand doesn't seem likely to call a river bet of any size.

[jg22]

Im still a newbie at this (I play the 20s on Party usually) but my thoughts are to bet more on the flop, maybe 50 or 60. The guy made a bad call on the flop bet for sure, he might have laid it down for a larger bet.

My experiences in the 20s is that usually sets and better kickers on the jack would raise after the flop, so it would be an easy lay-down at that point. I would say that a caller would be more likely to have a 7 or some sort of middle pocket pair and think its good. Generally, Id say about 75% of the time (at least in the 20s) top pair would be ahead on the flop in that situation with just limpers.

Id bet half the pot again on the turn, but if this guy called half the pot on the flop hoping to catch runner runner for a flush, he'll call just about anything on the turn since he caught his first spade.

[zaphod]

I am also lost on these hands. I like best to check and fold on the flop. My other option is bet 75 on the flop and then slow down(check-fold.) My thinking is i really don't want to loose a lot of chips on top pair weak kicker early in the tournament. But it i guess i miss a lots of opportunities for easy chips early in the tournament.

[Phil Van Sexton]

The min-bet was pointless. They have big stacks and will likely call 30 with anything.

You have a small stack, so your options are limited. I'd probably check and let them bet with worse hands. If they check behind, I'm coming out firing on the turn for 100.

Alternatively, I also might bet 100-125 on the flop and try to take the pot immediately. I don't want to bet small, then have them call and have no clue and a big pot.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
. . .but if this guy called half the pot on the flop hoping to catch runner runner for a flush, he'll call just about anything on the turn since he caught his first spade.

[/ QUOTE ]

. . methinks it was his Ace that resulted in the flop call, not the possibility of runner-runner flush.

[rickr]

Tell you what I've been doing recently with good success. Check raise that flop. If you end up giving a free card, dump it if it's bad. The check raise really let's you know where you stand.

Later,
Rick

[unfrgvn]

Leading into a pot with the min bet is waste of money in most cases. About 90% of the time it's a scared bet, about 10% of the time it's a monster trying to build a pot.
I agree with the other posters, lead into the pot with T75 bet and you will find out where you stand. Most reasonable players with only one over card will fold to that bet. You're playing limit poker. From two dimes:
pokenum -h jh 9s - as 8s -- 2s jc 7d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2s Jc 7d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9s Jh 826 83.43 164 16.57 0 0.00 0.834
As 8s 164 16.57 826 83.43 0 0.00 0.166

The $30 bet is actually giving him the odds he needs to continue, provided he knows he won't be re-raised by the player behind him.

The turn certainly wouldn't have scared me. What would have worried me was getting a $75 bet called, if I had made one. Having made a $30 dollar bet and not getting raised, I think you have to take another shot. $60 is still light, maybe bet half the pot here. If I'm called here then I'm pretty sure I'm beat and would either check/fold or check call the river, depending on whom I'm playing, how big the river bet is, etc.

[ReDeYES88]

How should I play this differently?

***** Hand History for Game 1712277124 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10251724) - Wed Mar 09 22:31:17 EST 2005
Table Table 11039 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Button (1480)
Seat 2: SB (730)
Seat 4: Villan (560)
Seat 5: Hero (1750)
Seat 7: UTG+1 (690)
Seat 8: MP (390)
Seat 9: CO+1 (1475)
Seat 10: CO (925)
mikeyrats posts small blind (15)
Scuba_Chuk posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Hero calls (30)
UTG+1 folds.
MP folds.
CO+1 calls (30)
CO folds.
Button folds.
SB folds.
Villan checks.
Flop: (t105) [ 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Villan bets (30)
Hero calls (30)
CO+1 calls (30)
Turn: (t195) [ 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Villan bets (60)
Hero calls (60)
CO+1 folds.
River: (t315) [ 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Villan checks.
Hero bets (100)
Villan calls (100)
** Summary **
Main Pot: 515
Board: [ 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]

Results:
<font color="white"> Villan balance 340, lost 220 [ Jh 9s ] [ two pairs, jacks and sevens -- Jh,Jc,9s,7d,7s ]
Hero balance 2045, bet 220, collected 515, net +295 [ 8s As ] [ a flush, ace high -- As,8s,7s,3s,2s ]</font>