Limit hand (last 2 tables in a multi, that's STT-ish enough, yeah?)

spentrent · #1 03-10-2005, 06:50 AM

PokerStars Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind t3000 (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t73150)
MP1 (t65502)
MP2 (t61499)
MP3 (t43486)
CO (t49571)
Button (t8032)
Hero (t31783)
BB (t3746)
UTG (t13348)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls t746 (All-In), MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.24 SB, t21746) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.62 BB, t33746) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds.

River: (6.62 BB, t39746) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 6.62433333333333 BB (t39746)

MP1 rarely limped -- usually open-raised when he'd get in a pot -- but he seemed a little loose... I felt like he was coming into too many pots. Only time I saw his cards was when he got called down by a short stack having open-raised JTs from the middle.

I was playing a little more tightly pre-flop but I would bet and bet and bet if I got into a pot, whether the flop hit me or not. Never had to show those down, but I did get to show down JJ and QQ. I think I looked like a rock on a lucky flop streak.

I think he put me on AK from my image and my pre-flop 3-bet but I puked when that K turned. I couldn't force myself to represent that king. In spite of my read of his read of me.

- Should I have 3-bet the flop?
- Should I have done the safe thing and folded to his flop raise?
- Should I have grown a pair and represented AK?

I'm such a scaredy-cat playing limit.

Seadood228 · #2 03-10-2005, 07:25 AM

Seeing this hand makes me remember just how frustrating these things get.

Preflop I'm not a huge fan of the 3 bet. You are out of position, and even if the flop is favorable, you are offering him decent odds to draw to overcards if that is indeed what he has.

On the flop I'd think you should bet any board except 9xx, in which case you could consider checkraising.

If your opponent is the type of player that will hang on with overcards, or call down with TT on a KAxx board, then you pretty much have to play a guessing game..

As it plays out, I think you can pretty safely fold to a flop raise. He raised the flop after you three bet preflop, which tells me he's at least got a Q..

Which probably means you folded the best hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

spentrent · #3 03-10-2005, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing this hand makes me remember just how frustrating these things get.

Preflop I'm not a huge fan of the 3 bet. You are out of position, and even if the flop is favorable, you are offering him decent odds to draw to overcards if that is indeed what he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the tips. I hadn't considered my position with 99 when I 3-bet, I just thought "I have the best hand now, so I will play it that way," which in retrospect is naive and silly.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop I'd think you should bet any board except 9xx, in which case you could consider checkraising.

If your opponent is the type of player that will hang on with overcards, or call down with TT on a KAxx board, then you pretty much have to play a guessing game..

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is I did NOT think he was that type of player. That makes me think I should have 3-bet the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
As it plays out, I think you can pretty safely fold to a flop raise. He raised the flop after you three bet preflop, which tells me he's at least got a Q..

Which probably means you folded the best hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The short stacked guy had a K, but I lost all that side pot money by folding to a weak A. He outplayed me, fair and square.

Had I bet the turn the side pot would have been mine. 3-betting pre-flop, leading the flop, and calling his flop raise REAKS of AK to the villain. I think I needed to bet when that turn card K came up.

Instead I thought, "I'm probably beat so I should check/fold if I want to hang around this tourney a little longer. In fact he seems AK-ish so I better not bet the turn."

The scaredy-cat inside used its veto power over a great read my rational side had.

11t · #4 03-10-2005, 07:14 PM

I really hate the 3 betting from the SB, in limit I find that raising out of the blinds is one of the bigger leaks that people have and never realize. I mean you are making a big pot, over cards will fall on the flop the majority of the time, and you are out of position.

Why would you 3 bet out of the SB with AK anyways? You only hit the flop like ~35% of the time so again you would be creating a huge pot out of position with a weak hand.

All betting out of the blinds does in limit is reveal that you have a good hand preflop and lets you lose big pots when you do not hit or you are faced with tricky decisions.

That being said your bet out on the flop and then calling his raise again reveals your weakness. You stated "I would bet and bet and bet if I got into a pot, whether the flop hit me or not" and now all of a sudden you CALL a raise which would be like dumping blood into a pool of sharks, he can smell your weakness. I mean you aren't even aware of how your table image is affecting other player's decisions versus your actions.

Now if he was open-raising every pot he got involved in and then betting it down every time to the river I would suggest calling his flop bet and then check-calling him down to the river. If you are not willing to do this then simply fold.

If he was open-raising with broadway hands and then betting when he hit I suggest you call and see a flop, if it hits you good play it and if AKQ hits simply check-fold.

However, if he was a TAG (which you claimed he was not) then raising out of the SB wasn't that bad since you are showing your strength. To qualify that though representing hands only works versus people who are CAPABLE OF FOLDING.

I think you should have bet out on the turn and river though, you were pot committed due to your free chip give away.

He probably had some BS like QJ.

Phil Van Sexton · #5 03-10-2005, 08:27 PM

In a limit tournament, you have to do everything possible to increase your chances of winning the hand. The pot will be big enough no matter what.

Since the BB is already committed, your 3 bet only builds the pot as already mentioned.

If you are going to call his raise on the flop, you have to bet the turn or call him all the way down. He's definately going to bet the turn, so you should just fold to his flop raise if you don't want to swallow the turn bet.

spentrent · #6 03-11-2005, 01:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In a limit tournament, you have to do everything possible to increase your chances of winning the hand. The pot will be big enough no matter what.

Since the BB is already committed, your 3 bet only builds the pot as already mentioned.

If you are going to call his raise on the flop, you have to bet the turn or call him all the way down. He's definately going to bet the turn, so you should just fold to his flop raise if you don't want to swallow the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks... the way you state it makes the underlying concept very clear. And people think NO-LIMIT takes balls.