How to invest almost 7BB from the SB with 54s...anyone else play this?

climber · #1 03-04-2005, 11:14 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Typical table, couple fish, 3 Tazs a mouse and an couple frowny faces.

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $4.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 caps, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Mouse limps UTG, and money bag raises UTG+2 It comes around to me in the SB. When it comes to me I've got 6 people in the pot in front of me already. This hand seems worth a play to me.

Then the UTG mouse check raise 3-bets the field and I no longer feel so good about my decision to see the flop. Original raiser caps but at this point we are still gonna be 6-7 to the flop and I figure I pretty much have to see it and hope it nails me now that I have already put $6 in...Right or wrong?

Flop: (31.33 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Exactly what I was hoping for.

Turn: (25.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (30.66 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 35.66 BB

Anyone play this different?

Grease · #2 03-04-2005, 11:16 AM

Preflop seems really marginal, because having it capped would suck royally, not to mention you're out of position. I'm not paying 2 BB to see a flop with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] even if everyone's in because my pot equity sucks. Other than that, seems standard.

krishanleong · #3 03-04-2005, 11:18 AM

Just curious, but what do you think his preflop equity is assuming no higher flush draw?

Krishan

27offsooot · #4 03-04-2005, 11:22 AM

Mouse means low PFR % right... i don't like the first PF call, but i really don't like the non-river 3 bet.

PokeHer · #5 03-04-2005, 11:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop seems really marginal, because having it capped would suck royally, not to mention you're out of position. I'm not paying 2 BB to see a flop with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] even if everyone's in because my pot equity sucks. Other than that, seems standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

There really is no evidence for him to think that it is going to be capped. There was one raise when he called and you can never really suspect a limp-reraise followed by a cap.

His pot equity may not be great, but he invested 2BB to likely win 35BB. 17.5:1. I am certain that his pot equity is higher than about 6%. Granted there wont be a 35 BB pot every time he hits, but when he hits, the payoff is likely quite large.

If he were something like MP2 and made the terrible initial cold call, i think it would be an easy fold once capped back to me. But in the SB where he knows that there are 6 people in already, I think it is fine.

PokeHer · #6 03-04-2005, 11:29 AM

Here is a sample of possible hands and their respective preflop pot equities:

pokenum -h 5s 4s - as ac - kd qd - td th - qc 9c - 6c 6d - 8h 7h
Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5s 4s 72359 14.42 429449 85.56 134 0.03 0.144
As Ac 140912 28.07 360896 71.90 134 0.03 0.281
Kd Qd 55146 10.99 444077 88.47 2719 0.54 0.112
Td Th 66959 13.34 434849 86.63 134 0.03 0.133
Qc 9c 47366 9.44 451857 90.02 2719 0.54 0.097
6c 6d 48901 9.74 452907 90.23 134 0.03 0.097
8h 7h 67580 13.46 434228 86.51 134 0.03 0.135

climber · #7 03-04-2005, 11:32 AM

Yeah mouse is PFR under 5% and under 20% VP$IP but still aggressive postflop.

As much as I hate the fact it gets 3 bet and capped after my first coldcall--that likely means they hold hands that will pay me off big if I actually hit something.

So by that logic, if my intial call was worthwhile I should be even more inclined to call the cap. Makes you start to wonder about the initial call though.

As far as equity preflop..I just downloaded Pokerstove but can't figure out how to make it work.

PokerBob · #8 03-04-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Typical table, couple fish, 3 Tazs a mouse and an couple frowny faces.

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $4.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 caps, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Mouse limps UTG, and money bag raises UTG+2 It comes around to me in the SB. When it comes to me I've got 6 people in the pot in front of me already. This hand seems worth a play to me.

Then the UTG mouse check raise 3-bets the field and I no longer feel so good about my decision to see the flop. Original raiser caps but at this point we are still gonna be 6-7 to the flop and I figure I pretty much have to see it and hope it nails me now that I have already put $6 in...Right or wrong?

Flop: (31.33 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Exactly what I was hoping for.

Turn: (25.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (30.66 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 35.66 BB

Anyone play this different?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the 1/3 blind structure, you have to be more selective with your SB holdings. That said you are likely getting 50/5 on your call. The limp/rr sucks, but now you're pot-stuck.

What is he limp/rring with? AA or KK. 3-bet the river.

einbert · #9 03-04-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to me I've got 6 people in the pot in front of me already. This hand seems worth a play to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
With your poor position and a couple of LAGs in the hand? Not to mention the 1/3 structure of the SB in 3/6, I think this is an easy fold. Easy call when it comes back capped to you though, obviously.

I like your flop 3-bet, you probably have around 30%-35% pot equity and there are 5 other people that have already invested 2SB in the pot. Ton of value on that.

On the turn your pot equity goes down to 20%, you need everyone to call every time and noone to raise any time for this to be +EV--it's not. And you certainly don't have enough fold equity to make this bet worthwhile--this hand is going to a showdown for sure. Check and call here.

You hit your hand on the river and you're not going to 3-bet? UTG could have a boat but he could have a lot of other hands too, I would 3-bet and call a cap.

EDIT: Yeah I thought you had 56s, but you flopped trip fours instead. Postflop is perfect except I would have 3-bet the river, I don't think UTG has you beat here 34% of the time.

climber · #10 03-04-2005, 11:38 AM

Nice PokeHer is fast with the numbers. I'm not too familiar with how these numbers work, but...

Equity wise it looks OK for me as long as we are probably 5-6+ handed? Implied odds are gonna be big here but its gonna be really expensive to see the turn or river so I'm not sure you can look at the equity numbers and count on implied odds? The 3 flop cards are going to be most important.