push harder?

djr · #1 03-03-2005, 03:28 PM

Typical shorthand players (VPIP>50, PFR<1, weak postflop)

Party Poker 1/2 Omaha/8 (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

I debated about calling in this position...seems too weak a hand for UTG.

Flop: (5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.

River: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

The big question is, should I have pushed the turn/river? I'm thinking betting the turn would have been correct, but not the river where there's now a flush draw out there.

gergery · #2 03-03-2005, 09:50 PM

Preflop, I’d have raised or folded, depending on whether I expected few calls or lots

Flop: I’d have checked-called. You have second nut low, no counterfeit protection, and little chance for high. And on a low board with flush and straight possibilities so you will not get lots of folds. Betting out here is either EV- or at best very slightly EV+.

Turn: fine.

River: I’d definitely bet. I can’t see A3 not betting on either the turn or river, so I’d figure you for at worst splitting low. For high, you K might be good since I’d have expected a 7/boat to bet already – won’t happen very often, but occasionally.

Chris Daddy Cool · #3 03-03-2005, 11:55 PM

granted that i know nothing of o8 starting hand requirements but i think i'd fold this UTG. you want to be starting with a suited ace (you got that) and a deuce (which you don't have).

the problem then arises on these types of flops. you have a non-nut low and have no chance at all for the high. i don't think its bad at all that you don't push this hand harder.

o8 newbie,
chris

Moneyline · #4 03-04-2005, 07:12 AM

Preflop: I would fold. If the 9 was a 5, J, Q (or maybe even a 6) I think the hand becomes playable, but as it stands I just don't think you have enough unless you have a decent chance of winning the blinds.

Flop: I like betting here. You may get other 2nd nut low hands to fold. I don't have pokertracker, so I don't know what VPIP means, but if the players are tight I would be careful if they called. If they're loose (and I'm assuming they are) I wouldn't be so concerned about it.

Turn: If the players on your left are loose I would bet again. If someone on your right has the nut low they would have bet the flop, so I don't think you have to be concerned about them. If the players on your left are good players I would probably make a slightly uncomfortable check/fold.

River: Now I think you can be sure that the nut low isn't out there. I like betting with the 2nd nut low, you may end up taking 3/4 with kings up when you would have only gotten 1/4 had you played it passively because a small flush might fold. There's also a decent chance that you have the low all to yourself.

pokahpro · #5 03-04-2005, 08:37 PM

This is hand is probably playable 6 handed.

If you think you are good for the low (you likely are). I would consider betting the river. You may knock out a weak high, maybe not. All anyone else is doing is checking, they are probably weak.

akaLogic · #6 03-04-2005, 11:42 PM

push harder. It's 6 handed.

Buzz · #7 03-05-2005, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I debated about calling in this position...seems too weak a hand for UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

djr - I agree it's not a strong starting hand. Still, it's not horrid, and six handed.....

[ QUOTE ]
The big question is, should I have pushed the turn/river? I'm thinking betting the turn would have been correct, but not the river where there's now a flush draw out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet the river.

It's a tough play. You had already bet the flop and gotten three callers, two of them with position on you.

Seems reasonable to check to turn and see what they do. Then when they both check, it doesn't much look like you are up against A3XX and you wish you had bet the turn. But then when the board flushes on the river it seems too late to bet.

However, I think you should have bet the river, even though one of your opponents may have made the flush, and even though you don't really want to get raised. It doesn't really look as though anyone has A3XX, and your bet might cause another A4XX to fold. Your bet might even knock out someone with a non-nut diamond flush, or someone else with a better high hand than your kings and sevens.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Phat Mack · #8 03-05-2005, 04:53 PM

Interesting hand.

I don't particularly like your hand UTG BTF, but it is playable six handed.

I like your bet on the flop. What did the calls mean? Would an A3xx have called or raised? How about another A4xx?

Your turn check, as Buzz said, is reasonable. When they all check behind, I agree that the A3xx may not be there. What would it have meant if someone had bet? It could have meant an A3, trip 7's or full house, a diamond draw, or all of the above. I think you may have learned something by having it checked around, but would still have been in the dark if someone had bet.

On the other hand, what would a bet by you on the turn have meant? All the same things, I suppose. It may have caused other A4's and flush draws to fold. I think a turn bet is OK if you felt your low was strong after not being raised on the flop, and if this was the type of game where betting could get people out.

On the river, you have something to show down both ways. It's a classic example of deciding if anyone will call who you can beat. I'd probably bet here if players had been showing down junk lows, if I though I could get weak highs that beat me out or if I thought I might get more than one high calling when the diamonds came on the end. I wouldn't view this as a situation where I could make a lot of money with a river bet, but might make a little if I had a good read on the table. It's close on the end, but I'd probably have felt better about my river decision making if I had bet the turn.