1st hand at table, 3 post out of blinds, 8 see flop, 5 see river

jb9 · #1 03-02-2005, 12:26 AM

I had just sat down at a Party 2/4 table. It was the table with the highest avg. pot that had an open seat, so I expected it to be fairly loose.

I and 2 others posted (not sure if they had been sitting out or just joined the table) plus the normal blinds, so the pot got off to a pretty good start...

What do you think?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $2. Hero posts a blind of $2. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, Hero (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO raises, Button 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO caps, Button calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (18 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (23 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 28 BB

einbert · #2 03-02-2005, 12:33 AM

I would have bet this flop. Hopefully button will raise and drive out some of the other players. You pretty much can't fold on the flop anyway so I think betting is correct as it makes calling additional bets a little easier.

It's close to a value check/raise on the turn, but I think being 3-bet here is quite bad so just calling is fine.

Would button really 3-bet the flop with AcQc? I'm 3-betting the river and calling a cap.

jb9 · #3 03-02-2005, 01:46 AM

I confess I didn't feel real comfortable in this hand. Once the flop got capped I was really wishing I hadn't posted a blind so I could have safely folded this preflop.

I knew my pair of Js was no good, and I suspected 2 pair wasn't going to win this hand, so I needed the flush or J 7 (or maybe just another J).

I didn't want to be in this hand, I didn't want to keep throwing chips in, but I didn't see how I could fold. I considered folding to the 3 bet on the flop, but after MP1 and MP2 called I felt I needed to at least see the turn.

I agree 3-betting the river makes a lot of sense given the action. I think I was too busy thinking about how much I could lose instead of how much I could win...

ams4 · #4 03-02-2005, 01:52 AM

I want this river to get capped. Please three bet it.

ErrantNight · #5 03-02-2005, 01:59 AM

raising the turn would be Bad (someone suggested it).

the flop action sucks bad... and i disagree about betting it. i've got top pair and i can go anywhere, but no one with a reasonable draw (including overcards) is going anywhere, i can't effectively protect my hand, and i can't bet for value. i'm waiting until the turn.

giving it up when it's two more back to you is the tough part. if you're drawing to the two jacks and a backdoor flush draw, you're pretty thin, but you're getting about 1:15 on your money, so i'm not sure how you can go anywhere.

but since you hit your frickin' miracle draw, i don't see how you can avoid 3-betting the river. it's purdy easy.

einbert · #6 03-02-2005, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
raising the turn would be Bad (someone suggested it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it so bad? You have 5 probable outs (we'll discount them to 3) plus 9 definite outs, giving you 11 outs once. With 11 outs you're 3-1 to hit, so if you raise and everyone calls you make money.

Now if the original turn bettor 3-bets and some people fold, it's not valuable. Whenever he does this you have to put in an extra bet but you're still retaining 25% of all bets that go into the pot. But it's not as profitable as just calling.

So if he is very unlikely to 3-bet, a raise is definitely in order. If he's likely to, a raise is really bad. It's not clearly bad though.

EDIT: I do agree though, that calling is better than raising.

ErrantNight · #7 03-02-2005, 02:17 AM

because you need all of your opponents to call in order for it to be CLOSE, assuming all your outs are clean (they may not), and if you lose even one, it's -ev, and if you get 3-bet, and lose one, or even more opponents, it's even worse.

einbert · #8 03-02-2005, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
because you need all of your opponents to call in order for it to be CLOSE, assuming all your outs are clean (they may not), and if you lose even one, it's -ev, and if you get 3-bet, and lose one, or even more opponents, it's even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you're right, it's way worse than I thought it was. Definitely -EV.

jb9 · #9 03-02-2005, 11:18 AM

Thanks for the advice. I was curious to see if anyone thought I should have folded at some point. I figured I had the odds to chase the flush given the size of the pot.

I agree I should have 3 bet the river. This is something I've noticed in my play before that I need to work on -- when the river card makes my hand, sometimes I am so relieved I got the card I needed that I guess I don't want to "push my luck" and I fail to maximize my winnings.

RESULTS: Button had KK for the set and I won the pot. Not sure what CO had, but I guess he had a set or A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].