NL50 6-max hand against 2 uberLags

[Raiser]

Party NL50 6-max

Both villains in this hand are very loose and very aggressive before and after the flop. UTG has gone from $650 to his current level of $1400 by winning a bunch of all ins, most of which he wasn't the favorite when the money got in. BB is borderline maniac.

Stacks:
BB - $55
UTG - $1400
Me - $180

I get AQ in CO. UTG raises to $5, I call, BB calls. ($15 pot)

Flop is 8TJr. BB checks, UTG bets $7, I call, BB pushes, UTG calls, Hero ?????

What's your plan for the flop and the rest of the hand if you continue?

[Tilt]

How can you continue? It sounds like UTG isn't going to fold almost any hand, so you either have to ahead with Ace high or draw out on him. And a Q may not be a clean out. You are probably behind at least one of the two players. Fold it.

[Raiser]

Hey Tilt,

Did you notice that I've got a double gutter here?

[TrailofTears]

Come on, Raiser. Are you telling me that you can't find a better spot to put all your money in against two LAGfests. I know for a fact you can, and with these guys it seems like you will get that chance. Don't put your 3xBuyin stack at jeopardy on a complete draw when you don't even know which outs are good or how many you have. Lay it down and battle them another time.

-T

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Tilt,

Did you notice that I've got a double gutter here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you do and you don't. At least one if not 2 of your 9's are in their hands. Possibly 3 if the pfr was from 99.

I don't think I am seeing mosters under the bed here, I just think you can get away from this now and that proceeding is just gambling. Even against these guys. Somebody here is at least paired I think. Which even if all your outs were clean - overcards and all - gives you at best a coin flip heads up. But lets not kid ourselves; you don't have that many outs.

[TheWorstPlayer]

You have to REALLY protect your 3x buyin stack with these uber deepstacked fish around. Don't go for this TINY edge, if there is an edge at all. Wait for a better spot.

[jdaddy]

You know you are going to double though the big stack a time or two, just not with this hand. Clearly a lay down.

[Raiser]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] <sigh>

Thanks guys. Sounds like I totally butchered this hand. Here was my though process.

After BB's push and UTG's call, I assumed that at least one of my 9's was gone. UTG calling could honestly be any part of the flop. He'd call here with AT. So I figured I had 4 outs to the nuts and maybe as many as 10 or so (3 Aces, 4 kings, 3ish nines) to the winner. I figured that on average, I would have 7 outs here, which put me right on the boarderline of calling as the pot was laying me ~2.5:1. And I knew if I hit my hand UTG would pay me off.

Anyway, I called BB's push. The turn was a 7. UTG bet $20, I called. River blank and I lost to BB's 92 and UTG's 99. Very nice read by Tilt.

I've always subscribed to the school of thought that in a cash game you take any edge you have and play it. The "wait for a better spot" theory never made sense to me in the context of a ring game. I'm not sure how I feel now?

[TrailofTears]

I can understand your skepticism of the "wait for a better spot" theory, but with these guys you KNOW there will be a better spot.

-T

[jhall23]

Pushing any edge would make perfect sense if there was no max buy in and you could just re-buy back to what you had. But if you loose your lovely stack to the huge stack you can only buy back in for 50 bucks and then have to work back up again so it's not quite so clear. Since he is a crazy lag you can find a better spot than a draw that you are unsure how many outs you have.

If you were both around the max buy-in then I agree the "waiting for a spot" tourney thinking doesn't make any sense.