What's a reasonable ratio for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place finishes?

[bkm]

I've just started seriously playing (3-tabling) and tracking my $10 SNGs and was wondering what percentages I should be looking for. I've finished ITM in 50 of the 120 SNGs I've played (I know it's a small sample). I have 11 1sts, 19 2nds and 20 3rds. So, my ITM is 42% and my ROI is 15%. The ITM seems reasonable, but my ROI seems low. My finish percentages of 20-40-40 seems to indicate that I have too many 2nd place finishes. Of course this could simply be due to a little bad luck and my small sample size.

So, how many SNGs do I need to have a reasonably accurate view of my SNG playing ability?

What ITM and ROI should I be aiming at?

What ratio of 1,2,3 place finishes should I be looking for?

[lorinda]

Keep that ITM above 40 and you'll learn the rest for free.

It does appear you might be struggling late game, but that will fix itself in time and you're right you have a VERY small sample.

Lori

[obex]

I logged about 250 games at 20+2 before moving up. My ratio this level: 12.0% 1st, 14.7% 2nd, 16.2% 3rd.

For 50/100/200 games, (around 1100 total, mostly at 100+9):
12.4, 13.4, 13.6 for 1sts, 2nds, 3rds, respectively.

I have improved a lot since moving up but still am catching myself making mistakes. I find the times I am most unsure of how aggro/passive/tight/weak to be is 3-way. I'm sure there are posters with better 1/2/3 ratios than this, but I figured I probably had a large enough sample size to give you what you were looking for.
(All these were Party games)

[GauchoFish]

i really don't like the fact that in both sets (20's/30's) your 3rds are higher than your first. I think it goes w/out saying that this is the source of your low ROI.

Are you blinding a lot of chips away 4-5 handed looking for 3rd? Are you then doing the same looking for 2nd?

I know some will disagree with me, but i usually go balls-to-the-wall when its 4-5 handed (and even 6 or 7 somtimes) if they blinds have gotten huge and people are playing too tight.

This allows me to amass a very large stack (or bust out prematurely hehe) and position myself for the win. I ESPECIALLY DO THIS WHEN IT GETS 3 HANDED!!! Its only an extra $30 for 2nd...but its $90 more for 1st! Thats quite a jump.


Good ITM, suggesting you play proper early on, though my inkling, as i stated, is that you need to loosen up a bit late game.


WD

[obex]

uh... I'm not sure if you're talking to me.
The second set of numbers are primarily for the 100+9 Party STTs. I think the ROI I get with these is pretty good for this game (much different game than the $30+3), and I'm up about 16G. I'm not sure what you mean by extra $30 for 2nd, but I think I get your point.
I play for ITM, then I play for 1st. Both jumps are worth $200. This means I'm usually a little tight on the bubble and then pretty loose aggro three way. With the blind structure I don't think having the "big stack" is worth missing the money on the Party games because it still is a relatively small stack in terms of xBB because by the time you're three way the BB is at least 400. Once you make the money, you have a decent shot at winning, no matter how small your stack.
My style has served me well, but if someone out there is beating the $100 game for significantly more than 20% ROI over a real long run and thinks otherwise, I'd like to hear it. There may be a better way.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep that ITM above 40 and you'll learn the rest for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

*I* really like hearing this, Lori, since I'm still pulling my hair out over my miniscule ROI and dearth of first place finishes. However, my ITM is solidly above 40. I'm hoping that by the next 50-100 SnGs that I'll just get better from experience.

[GauchoFish]

oops...confused you with the original poster sorry. i have no experience playing the 100's, so i can't comment. though for the 20's/30's, IF people are playing TOO TIGHT and only trying to get the money, the strategy you suggest in your post, a FANTASTIC counter-strategy that has worked very well for me has been to raise with pretty much any two cards quite often. if i have 2k or more in chips 4 handed (average stack or above) this is usually not how i play it. though since i play absolutely frogs-ass tight for the first few rounds i often find myself 4-6 handed with ~1000 chips. i'd say i increase my EV by doing this...the reason being:

the % of time i get blinded off OOTM due to tight bubble play is pretty darned close to the % of time i get snapped stealing and finish OOTM. so the X factor here is how well i do when i finish ITM when i play tight on the bubble vs. how well i finish when i play loose on the bubble (in a tight game). I'd be willing to bet my left arm against $20 that i make at least 25% more in this second group of tourneys (due to my increased chip stack and table image, which i can capitalize on when i do get AA), on average. Thus, it is a +EV move, for my game.

Sorry if i made that incredibly too complex, i get in this argument about 10 times a week with my 'crew' of poker buddies and the only proof i have is my ROI, i guess thats enuff...hehe....they all think i'm insane.


WD

[yoshi_yoshi]

I pretty much have the same problem you do in low-level SNGs. I see these players at the higher levels placing 1st at a much higher rate and am ashamed of mine.

I do have a theory though, if you're into wishful thinking. I think a lot of my ROI comes from just sneaking into the money when people bust out for really dumb reasons - for example, when two big stacks go to war when neither of them have a premium holding. So if I see that the table is full of action I'll take a less aggressive approach to the bubble and accept that I'll be going into the money short-stacked. So in a sense I pay a '1st premium' for having the privelege to get ITM with minimal effort.

Since we're here to maximize ROI%, it's possible that while for the higher-level SNGs the best way is to get a lot of 1sts and 3rds, that for lower-level SNGs the best way is just to get as many ITM as possible. Maybe, maybe not...

[Isura]

I'm like you. I really get aggressive (probably too aggressive at the moment) and try to steal with any 2 when it's 4 or 5 handed if the situation is right. I find the best time to steal is when 2-3 have approximately the same stack as me, they seem to really tighten up and are unwilling to fight for those blinds against an equal stack. I get a lot of firsts and some thirds. Hardly ever get second, but that could also be because at the low limits no one can play heads up well.

[Isura]

Depends on the game. At party, yeah I agree that most of your ITM's comes from idiots you can't control themselves. But I find at Stars, due to the deeper stacks that its much more about building a stack in the earlier rounds. Make sure you pick up those value bets from fish who call down with 4'th pair no kicker. I think it is important to pick up all the dead money out there in the early rounds before the true fish knock themselves out. I find it makes playing the later rounds much easier.