Wired AA-Played to fast?

krazyace5 · #1 02-23-2005, 01:20 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

SB ($26)
BB ($26.7)
UTG ($22.1)
MP ($6.1)
CO ($19.45)
Hero ($91)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4.5, SB calls $4.25, 1 fold, UTG folds, CO folds.

Flop: ($10.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $12, SB raises to $21.5 (All-In), Hero calls $9.50.

Turn: ($53.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($53.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $53.50

Results in white below: 
SB has Qc Qs (three of a kind, queens).
Hero has As Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: SB wins $53.50.

kongo_totte · #2 02-23-2005, 01:56 PM

No. Only thing I would do diffrently is I would not raise that much PF, but since you got a caller, I guess it's fine.

In my experince, a weak flop bet like that means:
a) "I've heard rumors that betting in poker is good, maybe I'll by the pot w/ AK
b) A flush draw hoping to get a cheap turn ("hey, I bet, he must fear me")= most likely
c) a monster
d) Anything (who knows how Party NL25-fish think?)

Of these, you only fear C, which is maybe 1/3 of the time. With the FD being the most probable, I raise heavily.

His 3-raise isn't great for you, but I would say it's just as often A Q as a hand that beats you, and with stack sizes taken in consideration, I'm not folding.

Well played

kurto · #3 02-23-2005, 02:08 PM

"and with stack sizes taken in consideration, I'm not folding." It just struck me that so many of our posts involve short stack play. I wonder if we slightly handicap ourselves because we end up justifying any call because everyone has small stacks?

btw- though it may not be easy to lay down pocket aces..I think he could have laid down here.

The preflop raise was pretty large.

Let's assume his opponent isn't even halfway decent. He knows hero raised 10xbb preflop. That kind of over-betting usually screams great PP. (unless that's his standard raise) Knowing that, opponent still calls the raise.

Opponent leads out into the raiser... even though its a minraise, a clear sign of strength. Hero's raise says at the VERY LEAST, he has TPTK... more likely, 'I've got TPTK beat.' Opponent says, "I don't care... I'm all in."

That has set written all over it. UNLESS you can specifically say you know the opponent is an idiot, I don't think this is well played. This pot was much larger then 1 pair merited considering the action.

Caruso329 · #4 02-23-2005, 02:10 PM

It could just as well be KK.

PoBoy321 · #5 02-23-2005, 02:16 PM

I think that what you're forgetting here is that even if hero knows for a fact that villain has QQ, paying him off is still +EV given that he priced him out of flopping a set pre-flop. Granted, there are points in the hand where it looks like hero could get away from his AA, but I think that for the times when villain has KK or AQ, this is a +EV call IMO.

kurto · #6 02-23-2005, 02:19 PM

It could be. But I still say a half decent player holding KK would have considered the possibility of hero having Aces. I think the villain played exactly how you would expect a set to play, including the min-bet lead out into the raiser begging to be raised.

And I still think it was played a little fast. I don't think you need to raise it 10xbb preflop... I think his reraise pot committed everyone with considering what range of hands the villain may have had.

I think the villain played the hero perfectly. I think the villain knew what the hero had, knew he would raise his flop bet.

A player read would really help. But looking at the action, I think a set isn't that tough a read. (I think the only justification to call is based on stack sizes... if this was deep stack play, hero would really be in trouble.)

If I can toot my horn.. I laid down aces twice night. Both times, the player showed and both times I was beat. Sometimes, a pair of aces is just a measly pair.

kongo_totte · #7 02-23-2005, 02:25 PM

""and with stack sizes taken in consideration, I'm not folding." It just struck me that so many of our posts involve short stack play. I wonder if we slightly handicap ourselves because we end up justifying any call because everyone has small stacks?"

I think you have a good point here. Lately, I've been examining why I do much better at Prima (100xBB stack) than on Party, and I think you mentioned the solution right there.

Thanks

kurto · #8 02-23-2005, 02:29 PM

"I think that what you're forgetting here is that even if hero knows for a fact that villain has QQ, paying him off is still +EV given that he priced him out of flopping a set pre-flop." I don't understand this. Why maximize the payoff for a bad call? If you know for a fact (as you stated) that you're beaten, there's no justification for putting any more money in the pot. His bad call preflop does not justify another's bad call postflop.

"but I think that for the times when villain has KK or AQ, this is a +EV call IMO." This is why I really think a player read helps. You can increase your EV by reading players. I have notes on so many players. If you're playing at a site long enough, you should have notes to tell you who's going to pay off any bet with TPTK... And who knows when TP isn't enough. If there was a read that his opponent was a smart thinking player, then I think it would be plain as day that he had a set.

And I still say that the overbetting cost him a lot of money on a simple pair.

PoBoy321 · #9 02-23-2005, 02:52 PM

I agree that in this instance, even without a read, this screams of set, but my point was that even if he knew for a fact that villain in this hand had QQ, he can call, and it is a mathematical certainty that he will show a long-term profit playing like this. Now of course, with a read and the ability to get off of these types of hands, he could greatly improve his profitability, but i certainly think that without a read, he will run into worse hands often enough that he will be able to make a considerable profit.

meow_meow · #10 02-23-2005, 03:54 PM

You guys put way too much faith in the party 50NL players. there are a lot more hands than just KK and AQ that the villain could have - flush draws, OESD, medium PP, any Q.

You got setted on the flop. Life is a bitch. You played it properly. With these stacks, there is just no way you can get away from AA, especially on a two-toned, non-paired board (even then I don't fold the flop even if one of the shorties open-pushes).