For those who don't frequent the "General" forum

kenberman · #1 02-21-2005, 02:34 PM

This is a great thread currently being discussed. It concerns VPIP, and the "tightness is next to godliness" gospel that tends to dominate 2+2.

As a 21% VPIP player, I've always thought that 15% players were passing up loads on profitable opportunities. Nate Tha Great gives evidence to support this, much better than I can [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

The point of this post isn't to say that you should have a VPIP of 15, or 18, or 21, or any other number. The point is that to earn maximum profits, you need to be able to recognize profitable situations when they arise, and take advantage of them.

I still think that beginners are best off starting tight. However, adding marginal hands in certain situations can/will increase your winrate.

guitarhero14 · #2 02-21-2005, 02:38 PM

Thank you! I dont visit the general forum much, now I will. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

gvibes · #3 02-21-2005, 03:05 PM

Are there any posts on recommendations to loosen up play?

I've only played ~ 7k hands with PT (I know, sample size...), but my VPIP has stayed at ~16.5 +/-.3 pretty much the entire time, and I'd like to play a few more hands.

Trying to open up my game:
- I think I'm too weak in the blinds against raises, particularly when the pot is multiway.
- I'm trying to limp with Axs earlier
- I'm limping with Kxs after several limpers, with passive blinds, on the CO and button
- playing more SC and suited 1-gappers

EDIT:
The following are recommendations posted by Nate in a follow-up post:
[ QUOTE ]

The first areas specifically where I'd tell a tightie to loosen up are, probably in this order:

1) Defending your blinds more, especially against steal raises.

2) Overlimping with more marginal hands in the Button or CO.

3) Stealing more or isolating limpers more with marginal hands in the Button or CO.

4) Limping, overlimping, or raising more with good suited hands and small-medium pairs in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

KingOtter · #4 02-21-2005, 03:31 PM

I think what he is saying really boils down to the fact that poker is very situational.

So much depends on your position, your opponents, your table-image, overall table aggression, overall table tightness/looseness, etc.

Once you learn to play situationally, rather than from a opening hands chart, you play better. You recognize what is a +EV situation and what may be a bad idea better.

KO

kapw7 · #5 02-21-2005, 04:56 PM

Tightness seems to be a god in this forum. (Look at previous post ) I liked the Pokertracker factor concept. Poeple trying to lower their VPIP and forgetting to improve their game. Or isn't that the same thing?

I try to play as loose or as tight depending on the table. And i've been profitable in loose and tight tables. But I guess I am just running well. Look at pokertracker and check how profitable "rocks" are. I don't have the perfect sample and I am not 100% sure that I am correct. But then I am not a rock and I am not looking for 100% situations in poker.

bd8802 · #6 02-21-2005, 05:09 PM

I am starting to buy into the SSHE philosophy that the EV of pre-flop play is marginal compared to expert post-flop play. As long as you do not make huge mistakes. I also think that 15% - 21% range deals more with the table read that you have made than a set number that you always want to hit. If you have a passive table and you and limp in with marginal hand for one bet, then there could very well be an +EV. But this is the case only if you are a good post-flop player.

People that are starting out, I think that being tighter is better pre-flop. It gives them a good starting point to develop a good post-flop game. They can -- and should -- expand their starting hands as they are more comfortable in situations and have a better post-flop game.

jcolter · #7 02-21-2005, 07:04 PM

I think playing multiple tables has alot to do with why many of us play tighter than optimal. Honestly, playing three tables I have a hard time learning just about anything about the betting patterns,or thought processes of my opponents.

If you expand this to eight tables, I can not imagine how one could play any other way then tight. There just is not time to absorb the relavent information that could justify playing more marginal hands.

Greg J · #8 02-21-2005, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think playing multiple tables has alot to do with why many of us play tighter than optimal. Honestly, playing three tables I have a hard time learning just about anything about the betting patterns,or thought processes of my opponents.

If you expand this to eight tables, I can not imagine how one could play any other way then tight. There just is not time to absorb the relavent information that could justify playing more marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo! I find myself automucking hands I would consider if single-tabling... like KTo in LP. This is a function of my playing four tables.

I personally am comfortable with my preflop style. I will keep it.

kapw7 · #9 02-21-2005, 07:49 PM

So this way you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life. Since you don't care to improve your game. Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

Bulbarainey · #10 02-21-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So this way you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life. Since you don't care to improve your game. Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

[/ QUOTE ]

it does become a dillemma... the max ive done is 5 tables, 4 PP and one pacific on the lappy, and i just cant play as well per hand. However, 4 seems just right for me, and my VPIP is 19.96 with not enough of a sample size to really know... but i think the point is that every player has to find the right combination: how many tables can you play at your best or at least very close to it? however, the idea of playing 50c/1$ 16 tables for a living on an LCDTV in india sounds enticing sometimes